Unprofessional Commission Conduct 0

[Rick2you2]

2 minutes ago, vodou said:

Rick2you2 there really aren't any standard expectations on either side. Everything is worked out custom every time and that's where you get so much of the slippage. Whatever isn't clear cut (due to design or fawning respect) can/will be abused as "professional" deadlines come to the fore or come unexpectedly. And sometimes some commissions...just are not fun. I used to take commissions for an artist (I was his rep, if you will) and I've got to tell you...never ever ever again. Talk about being caught in the middle! But you are right, the artists have their own complaints to and they should voice them in response to a model presentation that can include cross-outs and other by-hand modifications. Big deal. It's not as if we aren't all used to negotiating, as hobbyists, all the time anyway. We're all mostly reasonable people too that want to get a successful commission in the end, not present a document that guarantees failure (or rejection) by the other party!

 

Talk is all we've been doing here, and it's cheap. Instead here's some obvious boilerplate bullets:

• artist
• character/s
• interaction
• medium
• support
• "live" area size, support size
• price (fixed or schedule, x per character, etc)
• payment schedule
• deliverable deadline/s

Since you know more about what ticks off artists, why not write them out for us? Allowances should be made for their preferences. If there is an artists group to propose standards, by all means, let's get them.

Commissions pay a lot of artists. It's nuts not to have a baseline of what people should be expecting by now--and that also goes for the artists.

I liked the suggestion in the escrow agreement of an initial term of 60 days, with 2 potential 60 day extensions or a final termination and a deposit return. Half a year sounds plenty. 

Detailing, which covers many of your suggestions, are on a project by project basis (I'm not sure about what "interaction" means. Fighting or f*cking?). But standards like an upfront deposit, getting a preliminary layout, and shipping/handling ought to be somewhat standardized by now (if they aren't).

By the way, you can call me Rick.

[Rick2you2]

5 hours ago, Reader said:

I will probably never commission another artist. I’ve been very unlucky in that regard. Going on five years now and $4000 paid up front. My fault of course. As soon as I get it, (IF, I ever get it) I’m selling it and most likely at a loss).  

This is why we have small claims court. Sorry.

[Rick2you2]

4 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Over the last 12-15 years I've commissioned well over 200 pieces by at least 100 different artists and I've have some of the very best experiences and some of the worst possible.

I've had absolute rock stars & legends in the art world complete cover quality commissions for me in 2-3 weeks. I've had one of the best inkers in the business, Kevin Nowlan, complete an inking commission on a cover quality piece in less than 24 hours.....I've also had an artist disappear with my money for over 11 years (and counting). The lessons offered by these experiences haven't been lost on me. 

I've come up with a few simple rules for commissioning work with artists that can only help the commissioner's overall success and satisfaction rate:

1) Never, ever, pay an artist 100% of the money upfront. If there's a intermediary, such as an artist's rep, it's possible to negotiate the funds being held until work is completed with rights to refund for missing the promised date. A deposit or progress payments may work...such as 20% down, another 30-50% upon seeing a prelim that everyone approves of, and the balance upon completion. Removing the monetary incentive to complete work on time and in a professional manner is a recipe for disaster. Whether it's an artist, a plumber, electrician, or any other contract worker it's best to keep expectations and incentives in place for all parties. 

2) Have clear parameters for timing, price, and expectations on both sides, in writing if possible. If you want the piece in 2 weeks and the artist can't deliver for 2 months...well that's a problem for everyone. Lay it out plainly, don't tip toe around each other. Be straight up about what you want and when and what you want included or excluded. 

3) Get to know the artist you're commissioning and give them as much or as little direction as they require to complete the task. Some artists work well with detailed, line for line, direction while others want none at all. Don't try to break a wild horse, you're end up with saddle sores. 

4) Never, ever, pay an artist 100% of the money up front. Did I mention that? Yes, I did...it's that important.

I like these; good common sense.

I did, however, pay Colleen Doran 100% up front at a convention (I offered) and she delivered as promised. A truly lovely person as well as an excellent artist who can draw with quite a few different styles.  

[vodou]

15 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Since you know more about what ticks off artists, why not write them out for us? Allowances should be made for their preferences. If there is an artists group to propose standards, by all means, let's get them.

Commissions pay a lot of artists. It's nuts not to have a baseline of what people should be expecting by now--and that also goes for the artists.

I liked the suggestion in the escrow agreement of an initial term of 60 days, with 2 potential 60 day extensions or a final termination and a deposit return. Half a year sounds plenty. 

Detailing, which covers many of your suggestions, are on a project by project basis (I'm not sure about what "interaction" means. Fighting or f*cking?). But standards like an upfront deposit, getting a preliminary layout, and shipping/handling ought to be somewhat standardized by now (if they aren't).

By the way, you can call me Rick.

My experience, what ticks off artists isn't what you may think: those that need the income will agree to jobs that they really can't (stomach) doing. Meaning = they hate some stupid fanboys fantasy, try to outprice it, and then are stuck when the obscene upcharge is agreed to. And that most-hated commission continuously and endlessly gets passed over whenever there is any other paying work to do or just something decent on Netflix to watch. Now this is the artist's fault for agreeing to the proposal by pricing it, but still...not something you can put into contract form as we've been talking about. Other times artists simply overpromise or underestimate how much time something will take or that they can't turn on/off their talent like a lightswitch (in case you haven't noticed...it's not M-F, 9-5 with a 1 hr lunch for these guys like it is for many of those people commissioning them!) Same problem again. It's unstated but I'd suggest that the one complaint they may have (again, not that I've heard it though) could be commissioners being disappointed in something that wasn't originally indentified to begin with. I don't remember the exact details of your Chaykin commission anymore but maybe what you wanted and what he delivered...that gap wasn't clearly closed in your correspondence? (And if I'm wrong on that, still a good what if? example, but just not what actually happened cuz I'm working off iirc!)

"Interaction" referred to how those requested characters are acting in the piece, iconic pose or fighting each other or whatever...

Some artists will not work for anything less than 100% upfront and (at best) a very soft deadline.

I haven't done a commission in YEARS. Too lazy to check my records but it may even be a decade or more since my last. Very disappointing results and (imo relating to only those I personally got) a total waste of money, at a time when 500 bucks bought you 5k today in vintage published superhero art. So very expensive in opportunity cost too! Some people can't get enough of them. I am not one of those people

[hippiecop]

Everyone is more than willing to point out which artists have made good on their contracts, to provide the artwork they have agreed to. (And in a timely, or at least reasonable time frame.)  The reason these inconsiderate, if not outright dishonest artists are allowed to continue this abhorrent behavior, is because everyone seems to be afraid to point a direct finger at the offending artist.  I prefer to collect published art (just because that's what I dig), but I guarantee that if I had to put up with some of the garbage that some of these victims are forced to swallow, they would be identified.  

[mister_not_so_nice]

2 hours ago, Matches_Malone said:

 

 

Something like this could be useful as well 

 

I'd definitely like to get a more automated site, just need to find the right person to build it.  

 

It is absolutely something that is needed in the hobby.

 

 

[ESeffinga]

Patience is a Virue!

 

[Artboy99]

some feedback from an artist that does commissions:

I dislike the formal written contract, but that is mostly because I don't need one. I have never not delivered when I said I would in over 30 years. Reading some of the examples posted just shock me. How can anyone that calls themselves a professional delay for so long? Baffling behavior and is hurting the entire industry. We need to get them on "Catch A Contractor".

On the other hand: The formal written contract has some merit in that it can protect the artist. Example: getting a commission where the subject matter is discussed and then the person asking for the commission says "do whatever you want. I don't want to see it at all until it is done!" Sounds to me like I have full creative freedom and as long as I am delivering a quality page then all will be satisfied. Then you send a pencil sketch just to "wet the appetite" and then the buyer wants changes. Time is money.

While I can see some form of contract could be beneficial I am not sure how it can apply to art which is so subjective.

[Artboy99]

13 hours ago, hippiecop said:

Everyone is more than willing to point out which artists have made good on their contracts, to provide the artwork they have agreed to. (And in a timely, or at least reasonable time frame.)  The reason these inconsiderate, if not outright dishonest artists are allowed to continue this abhorrent behavior, is because everyone seems to be afraid to point a direct finger at the offending artist.  I prefer to collect published art (just because that's what I dig), but I guarantee that if I had to put up with some of the garbage that some of these victims are forced to swallow, they would be identified.  

And they should be. Disgraceful behavior and it should be outed and made very public. Otherwise they will victimize another.

[Rick2you2]

14 hours ago, vodou said:

I don't remember the exact details of your Chaykin commission anymore but maybe what you wanted and what he delivered...that gap wasn't clearly closed in your correspondence? (And if I'm wrong on that, still a good what if? example, but just not what actually happened cuz I'm working off iirc!)

I want to clean this up. I originally posted the thread on the Chaykin commission because I was not sure my reaction was reasonable. The variety of responses basically led me to the conclusion that I had over-reacted. Let me further add that's why I appreciate the divergence of opinion in what everyone said. That told me there was no standard. I also pointed out near the end of the thread that I would hire him again--and I would. 

On another note, Howard was excellent to deal with in a business manner. He said how he would handle things, and we went over some alternative layouts. Eventually, we settled on a rough layout which he sent (my thread comments were directed at final finish, never layout, and I said that several times). He was also very good at communication.

Finally, I had thought he was good at maintaining a schedule, but after reading some of these stories, he was brilliantly good at maintaining a schedule. 

Clear?

[Rick2you2]

14 hours ago, vodou said:

My experience, what ticks off artists isn't what you may think: those that need the income will agree to jobs that they really can't (stomach) doing. Meaning = they hate some stupid fanboys fantasy, try to outprice it, and then are stuck when the obscene upcharge is agreed to. And that most-hated commission continuously and endlessly gets passed over whenever there is any other paying work to do or just something decent on Netflix to watch. Now this is the artist's fault for agreeing to the proposal by pricing it, but still...not something you can put into contract form as we've been talking about.

I'm not the one who thinks the parties need a formal, full blown contract. Honestly, that would scare people away. What I do think is that there should be a set of standards which become part of the way artists and customers are expected to do business. If you want the technical lingo, they become part of something called an "unintegrated contract" because all the terms and conditions are not part of the same writing, but who the heck needs that bit of rubbish in their brains? 

Regarding your illustration, of course you can put it into terms (like the escrow agreement did, by the way). If the final product isn't shipped within  ____ days/weeks/months, the customer gets all the money back and the deal is cancelled. Put that and whatever else seems generally agreeable and print it out. Then have the customer and writer sign it. They can also add more of a description and price, thereby turning it into a formal contract. 

If I were a customer, I would be disturbed by an artist who wasn't willing to sign off on basic principles of fair behavior. It would tell me this is not someone to be trusted--and I may be waiting for 5 years or more for something which may never come. 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, Artboy99 said:

some feedback from an artist that does commissions:

I dislike the formal written contract, but that is mostly because I don't need one. I have never not delivered when I said I would in over 30 years. Reading some of the examples posted just shock me. How can anyone that calls themselves a professional delay for so long? Baffling behavior and is hurting the entire industry. We need to get them on "Catch A Contractor".

On the other hand: The formal written contract has some merit in that it can protect the artist. Example: getting a commission where the subject matter is discussed and then the person asking for the commission says "do whatever you want. I don't want to see it at all until it is done!" Sounds to me like I have full creative freedom and as long as I am delivering a quality page then all will be satisfied. Then you send a pencil sketch just to "wet the appetite" and then the buyer wants changes. Time is money.

While I can see some form of contract could be beneficial I am not sure how it can apply to art which is so subjective.

Thank you for your sanity. 

The way to prevent the problem of "do whatever you want..." is to prevent that from being the end of the discussion. First, require him to specify what I have now learned as "interaction". Does he want his superguy flying? Fighting? drinking a beer?

If he insists on saying "do it all until it is done", tell him you include an additional upcharge of $"X" to change a rough layout to a different rough layout if he doesn't like your choices. He can also cancel and get all of his money back except your basic charge to do the initial rough layout (which you should deduct from his initial deposit). His rights after getting the rough layout, and not incur an additional charge, is to add or suggest what he wants for final layout and detailing. Make sure all of this is on a printed piece of paper, and have him sign it. By the way, this is very loosely based on what architects sometimes do.

Hope that helps.

[vodou]

Good luck in your commission endeavors OP...seriously.

My suggestions come with over 30 years as a collector and small business owner and being in many situations (not just that of commissioner of an artist) where I turned out to be the most honest, direct and overall professional person in the room. This was often not obvious at the outset or even until near completion of whatever was on the table. This being the case doesn't make me a saint or paint everybody else* as bad guys, I'm only speaking from my experience. Bad experiences too many times to take much of anything for granted anymore, at least until I've formed a relationship with somebody of mutual understanding and respect. Specifically as to commissions, even with a full-blown (but not really, that's your phrase) contract being agreed to and signed by all parties it's very unlikely I'll ever get a blind commission or con sketch ever again. Just not worth the headache and surprise! factor, which is usually to the negative. I understand that I'm in the minority here, maybe, but similar to you OP - I have little tolerance or patience for bs at this point in my life...I'd much rather peacefully cruise into the grave from here out than be attempting regular and ongoing work it out scenarios with folks that typically only deliver their best output when they are happy (and thus are not so after I start calling them out on their 'whatevers' and am asking for better or more or $$ back, etc).

You previously mentioned small claims court. This is really effective only if both of you do business in the same state (like construction contractors would). Zero chance of collecting from out of state folks, which is most artists, unless you shame them publicly with a judgement. And even then...? You have no idea how many artists do not give a flying fig. Perhaps they take your money with the best of intentions "in the moment" but after that moment is gone...well. So many names are not being named because the commissioners are still hoping those commissions could happen after five, ten, twenty years. Yah. No bs there.

I will name one here, forgot I "gave" to Bob Wiacek. Bob's giving his $20k worth of fans exactly "1" update - twenty months ago.

Update 1

Posted by Bob Wiacek

20 months ago

   Share

 

 

Hello everyone. I'm taking this opportunity to thank all who have helped me in my our of need. I will be getting to those of you I owe drawings as soon as possible and I might point out that Paul Smith has graciously offered to help me by donating some sketches so for that I want to thank him. It looks like some lucky people out there will be receiving a Smitty drawing and possibly a few inked by yours truly.
Things are better right now though still a bit tight and I hope by working hard I will get over this financial hump. If there are any who wish to help please do. Anything you donate will be appreciated and used wisely.
I can't find the appropriate words to thank all who have helped me. Many articulate people have put it so well in the past but I will say I consider myself blessed to know you all.
Lastly if you are at a convention I am attending, please feel free to come by my table and inform me you donated to GoFundMe and I'll get to your sketch.
The best to you all.

Help spread the word!

The good news is...if you bump into him at a show you can jump whatever line (list) he has (if he's even really keeping one?) and get that sketch then and there. Awesome. That's essentially an admission of "good luck...otherwise"

But BW is small potatoes...there are horror stories and then there are mass murders. But that would be hearsay on my part, I've only ever been permanently (at least to date) burned by Wiacek. Anybody else want to name names and specifics?

Finally, OP, good luck with all those artists that don't have reps that middle and hold the money back or will not work for anything less than 100% upfront, do not accept PayPal, etc. There are many of them. Not all, no not at all, are "bad guys" but plenty of them are too and you will not know who is who because almost nobody is talking, at least not publicly, and it's not all dead-end or unpublished artists either. Some of the biggest names get away with murder. Sad. But true.

 

*In the global sense, the world's population.

[Rick2you2]

54 minutes ago, vodou said:

Good luck in your commission endeavors OP...seriously.

I appreciate the best wishes, but to be candid, it sounds like I've been really lucky. I've never been burned on a commission, and when I've been less than thrilled, I generally chalk it up to my over-expectations or the artist's right to make artistic choices. Now admittedly, it's not a huge number, but I just wanted to let you know what I do. 

First, I never just "grab" an artist. Preferably, I am already familiar with the artist's work or I check the convention list of who is going to be there and study up on the choices. If I don't, I carefully go through the art on their table to see if it catches me.  I did that with John Higgins, colorist on The Killing Joke, and was really impressed by his panel work. That sold me. And, he was great. By the way, I don't order blind commissions on the internet.

Second, I make sure the artist is a good fit for what I have in mind. For example, if an artist is particularly good at facial expressions, I would make sure the commission I have in mind will be a close-up or head shot so the artist's best skills are employed there. I also try to "feel them out" to see if they seem to think it's a good fit.  This includes familiarity with the character, but, it's not necessary. 

Third, I always bring reference tools for them. Since I only get commissions with the Phantom Stranger, I haul around reprint copies of his books. 

Fourth, I offer to pay more than their going rate, and generally, by suggesting the artist add extra background.  I know time is money, but the time they spend now is what I will be looking at forever. An extra $100-$200 spread over 10 years won't matter in the least.   

Fifth, I will buy them art supplies. A surprising number of artists don't come well prepared for sketches or commissions, with drawing stock in particular being in short supply. There is always someone selling that stuff, so I get what I can for them.

Sixth, I make it a point to talk to them in some detail. I need to feel comfortable with them and let them be comfortable with what I want. For Colleen Doran's female Phantom Stranger, I brought some other artists' samples I found on the internet, and made it very clear to her I wanted her interpretation of the character. By the way, she enjoyed that assignment and I really liked the result. I also got to know her as a human being through her work, and that's also part of the fun.

Seventh, I try to give the artist a sense of competition. I have digital images of a number of Phantom Stranger works I carry with me, including some heavy hitters. I point out that their new work will be displayed along-side this other stuff, and I want their best work to compare it with (which is absolutely true). A few artists don't care, but most of them do. 

Eighth, is timing. If they are going to finish it at the convention, I offer to pay them up front, sometimes half, sometimes, in full. Only once has an artist ever said yes to prepaid full payment (although, I will still press the naysayers to take at least part of it). Just the offer has impressed some of them. I don't want the artist to think they run the risk of getting stuck, and I want them to concentrate on the commission.

Ninth, for later completed commissions, I ask how long they need and when it can be expected. The ones I have dealt with have been very professional, but if one were running a little late, I would follow up with an email or call. Since I am already paying top dollar and have made my interest clear, I get well treated. 

Tenth, when the commission is done, I always thank them. I did screw up once, when I thought I had mailed a thank you note but found it later. I still feel badly about that. Sorry out there (if you're reading this). 

Hope this helps. 

 

 

[vodou]

4 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

By the way, she enjoyed that assignment...

Not picking on Colleen here per se (I don't know her one way or the other) but you do realize...artists lie to keep the money moving, right? Who wouldn't pretend to be the new best friend of [dude with open wallet]? Just like that prostitute that finally had her first real orgasm with...you. Working on the other side of the table for some years, I'm telling you, it's a different story at the hotel bar with only other artists gossiping among themselves or back in the room working on yet another White Queen, but nude commission. The level of disdain for anything fanboy is pretty high. Personally, I take nothing complimentary any of 'em say to heart unless I've seen the inside of their homes, met the non-comics wife (or gf) and aren't spending money with them! Enjoy the art...that's all that's real. IMO.

[Bird]

I had bad experiences with a few artists over the years...Seth Frail, Teddy Kristiansen, Michael Lark, Nick Pitarra to name a few...but the good experiences far outweigh the bad. In the end I either got my money back or got the art. In the case of Kristiansen it was a decade and I was able to get my commission only because he was coming to NY and I let it be known to his sponsor and to him that I would be there for a direct confrontation. Frail needed a reminder from Bleeding Cool (the commission, long since sold is one  his deviant site and he alludes to the issues in his brief description.) I was told that Pitarra's rep at the time dropped him over my (two?) ignored commissions and in the end we both decided to forget it, apparently out of disgust for each other and I got my money back. Lark got me a great commission but only after Mark Hay intervened for me.

I no longer have any interest in these artists or their work. That is the worst possible outcome. They lose fans and my enjoyment was poisoned.

[Bird]

I will say that I am often an outlier. Just because I had a bad experience does not mean that you will. Or if you had one that does not mean that I will. I myself had gotten commissions mailed to me by Michael Kaluta and Bill Sienkiewicz for instance. Even Kaluta seemed surprised when I mentioned it to him a few years after that fact. 

Just do your own research and tread lightly.

 

 

[Rick2you2]

37 minutes ago, vodou said:

Not picking on Colleen here per se (I don't know her one way or the other) but you do realize...artists lie to keep the money moving, right? Who wouldn't pretend to be the new best friend of [dude with open wallet]?

I hope none of this sounds testy. It isn't meant to be.

I guess the more important question to me is whether you think my suggested steps on getting a good commission make sense to you? I'm still waiting for the first response on that.

Of course I know artists and writers BS for business. I've also had artists and writers tell me the same thing. I'm an adult, and I project myself as one.  I'm also pretty good at sensing how honest people are. It comes with the experience.

While I certainly like OA, I'm not a fanboy. I ask critical (or make complementary) comments about their work. For example, what struck me with Higgins' panel work was that he could do a basic 6 panel, stuff 75 words or more into  one of them,  and still make the thing look interesting. In my view that's hard, and I think he appreciated my serious comment. And if I saw a page I thought could have been better, I'm not shy about telling an artist about why I think that way, either.  I've also gotten grudging "yea, well's" when I was specific about my reasons. And by the way, the artists sometimes have good reasons for why it looks that way.

Regarding Colleen, I wasn't looking for a new best friend. I was looking for someone who I felt would like the assignment. I only asked her if she enjoyed it after she did it and after I paid her. She was actually a little startled someone bothered to ask. 

People who ask legitimate artists to draw absurd looking nudes or sex scenes, well, my sympathy is limited.   

By they way, I enjoy these ongoing chats. Feel free to keep 'em coming.

 

[Artboy99]

4 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I hope none of this sounds testy. It isn't meant to be.

I guess the more important question to me is whether you think my suggested steps on getting a good commission make sense to you? I'm still waiting for the first response on that.

Of course I know artists and writers BS for business. I've also had artists and writers tell me the same thing. I'm an adult, and I project myself as one.  I'm also pretty good at sensing how honest people are. It comes with the experience.

While I certainly like OA, I'm not a fanboy. I ask critical (or make complementary) comments about their work. For example, what struck me with Higgins' panel work was that he could do a basic 6 panel, stuff 75 words or more into  one of them,  and still make the thing look interesting. In my view that's hard, and I think he appreciated my serious comment. And if I saw a page I thought could have been better, I'm not shy about telling an artist about why I think that way, either.  I've also gotten grudging "yea, well's" when I was specific about my reasons. And by the way, the artists sometimes have good reasons for why it looks that way.

Regarding Colleen, I wasn't looking for a new best friend. I was looking for someone who I felt would like the assignment. I only asked her if she enjoyed it after she did it and after I paid her. She was actually a little startled someone bothered to ask. 

People who ask legitimate artists to draw absurd looking nudes or sex scenes, well, my sympathy is limited.   

By they way, I enjoy these ongoing chats. Feel free to keep 'em coming.

 

I have been asked, I wont do them.

 

[The Voord]

14 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

People who ask legitimate artists to draw absurd looking nudes or sex scenes, well, my sympathy is limited.   

 

 

Maybe my commission idea of 'The Incredible Hulk lays The Incredibly Frail Aunt May' will not be met with the kind of enthusiasm and acclaim I was expecting?