Opinions on restored books 0

[Lukesaurus]

Hi everyone , i was wondering what i everyones opionion on buying graded restored books? i'm pretty new to the hobby and the are some books i want that i can only afford restored . So to me this is not such a big issue , I also know some that wouldn't touch them with a stick .

Also if anyone can tell me , for 2 books with the same grade one restored and one not , how much cheaper should the restored book be price wise ? 20 % ? 30 % ?

 

Thanks

[comicdonna]

It depends on the amount of the restoration but,  on average, I would say more than 30% cheaper for a restored copy vs unrestored.

[comicquant]

If the book is trimmed you could expect to see as much as 70% off the blue label.  Personally, I would possibly buy scarce GA books with minor A-1 level (professionally done in most cases) restoration but thats my limitation.  I'm not a fan of PLOD (purple label of death) books!

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, Lukesaurus said:

Hi everyone , i was wondering what i everyones opionion on buying graded restored books? i'm pretty new to the hobby and the are some books i want that i can only afford restored . So to me this is not such a big issue , I also know some that wouldn't touch them with a stick .

Also if anyone can tell me , for 2 books with the same grade one restored and one not , how much cheaper should the restored book be price wise ? 20 % ? 30 % ?

 

Thanks

Trying to ascertain FMV for a restored book is very difficult. It depends on so many factors, desirability of the book, the amount and placement of the restoration, etc. No rules of thumb that really work. I would be very careful about buying restored books as it is easy to overpay and be stuck with something difficult to sell. I think you are better off buying a Universal copy in lower grade for the same amount of money.  No easy answer or percentages for you. Sorry.

[Lukesaurus]

Everything i buy is for my personal collection so not worried about selling , being new to the hobby i'm just trying to get some info , so i don't overpay .

Right now i'm watching a book that is restored as "slight color touch on cover" . Books in the same grade go for around $225 , he wants $150 . Never Bought a restored book so i don't know if it's a good deal or not

[Bomber-Bob]

44 minutes ago, Lukesaurus said:

Everything i buy is for my personal collection so not worried about selling , being new to the hobby i'm just trying to get some info , so i don't overpay .

Right now i'm watching a book that is restored as "slight color touch on cover" . Books in the same grade go for around $225 , he wants $150 . Never Bought a restored book so i don't know if it's a good deal or not

Without seeing the book I would say that is NOT a good deal. He is asking 66% of FMV on a restored book, that's way too high.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Without seeing the book I would say that is NOT a good deal. He is asking 66% of FMV on a restored book, that's way too high.

+1.  Depends on which book, and what's done. There are circumstances where 66% of FMV could be a great deal and other where it won't. Is the book hard to find in any grade? Restored or unrestored? Is it a dot of color touch? If so, can that dot be removed, making the book unrestored without impacting the grade? Now you've got a $225 book for $150. See my point. Without particulars and taking all of those particulars into consideration, and what your purpose for the purchase is, hold or resale, it's difficult to determine the viability of paying 66% of FMV unrestored. for restored.

Edited April 18, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Lukesaurus]

Thanks for the advices , the book i was talking about is a Showcase 23 , grade is 3.0 . 

[James J Johnson]

11 hours ago, Lukesaurus said:

Thanks for the advices , the book i was talking about is a Showcase 23 , grade is 3.0 . 

The value for a relatively low production book that can be considered a silver age book of more rarity than most should be about the same for restored or unrestored in that grade range for that book, if the work is say, slight and it hasn't been trimmed. Moderate resto? Figure about 70%, and extensive, about 50 cents on the dollar. Trimmed? Take my formula for that book in that grade and deduct 20% of the factored price if trimmed. Hence:

unrestored value 3.0 = $1 (I'm making it an even round number to more easily see the value differential)

Slight resto = about the same, maybe 85 to 90 cents

Slight rdsto with trim = 85 to 90 cents X .8 = about 65 to 70 cents

Moderate resto = 70 cents

Moderate resto with trim = 70 cents X .8 = 55 cents on the dollar

extensive resto = 50 cents

extensive resto with trim = 50 X .8 = 40 cents on the dollar

Now this formula I designed for this book of greater rarity than most silver age, and for this grade range.

Not to be applied across the board to books of less rarity.

[ninanina]

2 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

The value for a relatively low production book that can be considered a silver age book of more rarity than most should be about the same for restored or unrestored in that grade range for that book, if the work is say, slight and it hasn't been trimmed. Moderate resto? Figure about 70%, and extensive, about 50 cents on the dollar. Trimmed? Take my formula for that book in that grade and deduct 20% of the factored price if trimmed. Hence:

unrestored value 3.0 = $1 (I'm making it an even round number to more easily see the value differential)

Slight resto = about the same, maybe 85 to 90 cents

Slight rdsto with trim = 85 to 90 cents X .8 = about 65 to 70 cents

Moderate resto = 70 cents

Moderate resto with trim = 70 cents X .8 = 55 cents on the dollar

extensive resto = 50 cents

extensive resto with trim = 50 X .8 = 40 cents on the dollar

Now this formula I designed for this book of greater rarity than most silver age, and for this grade range.

Not to be applied across the board to books of less rarity.

I purchased an FF 1 that was professionally restored from Doug Sulipa several years ago. It's restored grade is VF and I was told it's value would be the VG value. The work included pieces added, although looking at it I have no idea where the pieces were added as I can't personally tell. Current guide, and I do realize these have gone up quite a bit this year, is $4600.00 in VG. However, as it is a VF and you're saying the book should be .50 on the dollar, that would make my book worth $15,000.00. I must be missing something as I'm sure it's not a $15,000.00 comic as it sits.

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, ninanina said:

I purchased an FF 1 that was professionally restored from Doug Sulipa several years ago. It's restored grade is VF and I was told it's value would be the VG value. The work included pieces added, although looking at it I have no idea where the pieces were added as I can't personally tell. Current guide, and I do realize these have gone up quite a bit this year, is $4600.00 in VG. However, as it is a VF and you're saying the book should be .50 on the dollar, that would make my book worth $15,000.00. I must be missing something as I'm sure it's not a $15,000.00 comic as it sits.

No. The formula above was geared toward that book, not FF 1. Allow me to give you a scenario for the price structuring on FF 1, restored vs. unrestored.

Keep in mind that as a comic becomes more expensive, the disparity will become greater. The gap will widen, almost exponentially. The price spectrum that was narrow on that BB 23 will become enormous on an FF 1, or AF 15. Where an extensively restored SH 23 in G/VG will have a 1:3 differential between unrestored and extensively restored with a trim and unrestored, A extensively restored & trimmed FF 1 in 9.0 will be worth not 40 restored cents on the unrestored dollar as on the far less expensive Showcase 23, but likely only restored pennies on the unrestored dollar on the FF 1! A VF/NM unrestored going, for say, $150,000, while you'd be hard pressed to get even 1/20th of that for an extensively restored, trimmed FF 1 similarly graded! The gap has now widened to a nickel on the unrestored dollar for the FF 1 in high grade vs. the Showcase 23 for 40 restored cents on the unrestored dollar.

Before developing some type of formula, the book must be considered. The availability, the amount of work, the price, etc., etc.

Edited April 20, 2018 by James J Johnson

[ninanina]

Okay, can I assume then that the value would be about VG guide on an untrimmed extensively restored FF1 graded as a VF?  Current guide on an unrestored VF sits at $30,000.00.

[shadroch]

I'd think it would sell for a lot more than 5,000, so if the VG value is 4600, then your assumption is wrong. 

I'll give you $6,000 US for it right now, depending on exactly what the label says.

Edited April 20, 2018 by shadroch

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, ninanina said:

Okay, can I assume then that the value would be about VG guide on an untrimmed extensively restored FF1 graded as a VF?  Current guide on an unrestored VF sits at $30,000.00.

No two books are equal. That's even more true in the case of restored books. Most extensively restored are Frankenbooks. Books with substantial portions of the cover painted over, rebuilt spines, what was once paper reconstituted with what looks and feels like plaster, then re-glossed over giving it as artificial a look in hand as plastic fruit looks and feels compared to real fruit. It's difficult to apply a steadfast rule of value for unseen items. Restored books that look most natural and have small amounts of reversible resto will bring significantly more than ones with extensive, amateur work that can't be reversed and if nothing else, at least redone professionally. What are the label notes on this FF 1 Ext. (r) 8.0? How does it look in hand? Is the work obvious?

[ninanina]

The cover in hand looks like a 9.4...no spine splits, perfect corners, no tears and the back cover is like wise. The book is not graded and has no notes but was done professionally. I knew nothing about restoration back than and admittedly still know very little, although I have been able to pick up a few things on the forum over the years. I asked Doug how can you tell there were missing pieces added and from what I can remember (this conversation took place many years ago) he told me if you look at the book carefully, there are areas on the cover inside and out that look a bit whiter than the rest and that would be where the pieces were added. And yes, there is a noticeable gloss to the cover and I was aware it was re-glossed and this also was confirmed by Doug. Some of the black print on the inside front and back as well as the black print on the back does seem smudged ever so slightly and I suspect for this reason it was graded conservatively as a restored VF. By the way, if anyone's interested and I don't mind admitting I paid $1800.00 US for it.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, ninanina said:

The cover in hand looks like a 9.4...no spine splits, perfect corners, no tears and the back cover is like wise. The book is not graded and has no notes but was done professionally. I knew nothing about restoration back than and admittedly still know very little, although I have been able to pick up a few things on the forum over the years. I asked Doug how can you tell there were missing pieces added and from what I can remember (this conversation took place many years ago) he told me if you look at the book carefully, there are areas on the cover inside and out that look a bit whiter than the rest and that would be where the pieces were added. And yes, there is a noticeable gloss to the cover and I was aware it was re-glossed and this also was confirmed by Doug. Some of the black print on the inside front and back as well as the black print on the back does seem smudged ever so slightly and I suspect for this reason it was graded conservatively as a restored VF. By the way, if anyone's interested and I don't mind admitting I paid $1800.00 US for it.

$1800 is fantastic by today's scales and values. Luckily, in this hobby, time is the #1 correction of overpaying. If your impression of it is that it appears to be a very high grade book and the work is first class; difficult to tell where it begins and ends, then this is a very desirable book, restored or not.

[Jaydee]

By far this is a very informative and reassuring thread.  Ok i have a JIM 83.  I think I am going to send it to mike @ hero restorations.  It is a blue 1.0 maybe 1.5 that is not as sweet as a full restore.. it can also save the book.  VALUE is subjective with restos tbh.  Like a say if it is a Key Silver or high end gold below a 2.  Id Restore it..2.0 or above (only a small handful a books mind you) id probably be ok.  Im talking Marvel AF 15, spiderman 1, Jim 83, avengers 1, hulk 1, tos 39, tta 27 .  Im would never purchase or have the 1nd tier silvers restored.  

[Philflound]

Not to go off the subject a little, but your best bet like was mentioned by James is the rarity. Check out the census on how many books of that particular issue has been graded, and look at how many restored copies there are.

FF#1 is key but is extremely common. Over 2000 copies graded with just over 25% with restoration.

Showcase #23: 270 copies with just 20 restored. 7.4%.

So the Showcase is much rarer to come by, and paying a "premium" on a restored copy is not unreasonable.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Philflound

[justafan]

Is it possible to determine minimum value of a restored book based on the 2 condition states of the restoration:

1. Restoration can be removed: color touch, tear seals, pieces added, glue/tape

2. Restoration cannot be removed: trimming, reglossed (not sure), staples cleaned, cover cleaned using chemicals.

and the equivalent value assigned to the condition of the book due to changes made whether they are reversible or irreversible.

Could the following equation be used:

Value of Restored book = ability to remove restoration(Expected graded value after restoration removal - Cost of removing restoration and grading) + inability to remove restoration(equivalent Universal grade had the restoration been deemed non-restorative)

where:

Ability to remove restoration (Ar)= 1 if YES or 0 if NO

Inability to remove restoration (Ir) = 1 if YES or 0 if NO

Expected graded Value after removal (V)

Costs associated with restoration removal and grading (C)

Equivalent Universal grade Value if restoration was deemed non-restorative (Vn)

Restored Value = Ar(V-C) + Ir(Vn)

 

For example: if you have an AF15 Restored with glue and tear seals at a 5.0 that can be removed and if the removal will knock the grade down to an expected grade of 3.0 unless the glue is holding the entire spine together.

The minimum Restored value might be = 1(16,000-2000) + 0 = 14,000 for a 5.0 Restored with tear seals and glue.

For restored books where the restoration cannot be removed such as an AF15 5.0 trimmed on 1 edge where trimmed surface area is equal to 1 square inch off the front/back covers and interior pages the expected damage is a book that could be considered to have a 1" piece missing from the entire book putting it at a possible 1.8 to 2.0 grade.  Since the restoration of trimming can't be undone, this would result in a value of:

Restored Value = 0 + 1(11,000) = 11,000

Where the value may increase or decrease from those minimum prices could be how well the comic presents, the quality and degree of the restoration work, or the provenance.

And then of course you also have to factor in the possibility that restoration that could be removed would so heavily damage the book that it would be refused by reputable removal service companies which then places the value even lower as it removes the option for any work to be performed.

Not sure if this puts restoration in a more rational light because at the end of the day, restoration whether removable or not is simply a purposeful alteration of the comic's initial state which at one point may have looked worse than the comic currently does (unless the restoration is really really bad).  Hence all books could theoretically be Universally graded based on the work done to what the original grade was before restoration was applied (or in the case of trimming, to what the end result in loss of material would be).

Restoration still has such a huge stigma that those minimum prices above would still be discounted but maybe they shouldn't be.

 

 

 

 

[Lukesaurus]

From what i see on GoCollect , the last sales for 3.0 unrestored have been $180 , i'd like to make a fair offer for the book but not sure how much to offer . From the formulas here it's anywhere between $100 to $150