Are Newton Rings 'normal and acceptable'? 6 6

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I did. 3 months ago. CGC does not manufacture. It is the end user. I understood that when I called. I do know the source changed. I am still of the opinion hat the factory conditions of the new source is the issue, be it contamination/curing time and/or raw product blending/manufacturing. I would be very surprised if the end user has not already started the elimination process.

Good for you. Third party excuse aside, how did they take your call? What was their thinking / stance on the issue?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

5 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Good for you. Third party excuse aside, how did they take your call? What was their thinking / stance on the issue?

They were very nice and courteous. I took an "....you might want to consider..."approach. They did not have an engineering contact within the organization, but left me with the impression that the comments would be passed on to the team working on this, and to the supplier.

My impression was that the matter was being taken as serious.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

They were very nice and courteous. I took an "....you might want to consider..."approach. They did not have an engineering contact within the organization, but left me with the impression that the comments would be passed on to the team working on this, and to the supplier.

My impression was that the matter was being taken as serious.

Right, thanks. Encouraging,  but that was three months ago mind. If anyone behind the scenes is tearing their hair out over this they must've gone bald by now. Contractual wranglings aside,  I still see no reason why a holding response couldn't be made to us with an initial agreed process for managing complaints (e.g. free re holders / shipping reimbursements for NR infected books etc). If NRs are a production fault, the onus is on CGC to shoulder the financial downside. Not the paying customer. 

[skypinkblu]

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Do any of your slabs have NRs on the back Sharon? 

Not that I see, so far, I'm still not done going through them. I have to compare the original raw scans because on some the "newton's rings" look like dirt and I can't imagine I'd have sent a really filthy book in to be slabbed. I think I mentioned that the backs generally looked OK, and I was wondering if they reverse engineer the seating somehow it would help. Some of the books I got in this submission are OK.

A math/science person I know said that Newton's Rings are actually circles, comes from a round piece of glass interacting with a flat surface and this should be called some kind of flat surface interference, but he's checking further.

I thought the problem occurred when they switched plastics?

I have several hundred old slabs, never saw a ring before these last few submissions...Unless I missed one or two. 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I would agree, and it should be an "inform the customer" approach by the Entity. It is always a bit disappointing when that does not happen, and there is an appearance of nonchalance, on matter how unintentional.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Just now, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I would agree, and it should be an "inform the customer" approach by the Entity. It is always a bit disappointing when that does not happen, and there is an appearance of nonchalance, on matter how unintentional.

This was an answer to Marwood, not skypink, to avoid confusion. Timing of post. Apologies.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, skypinkblu said:

Not that I see, so far, I'm still not done going through them. I have to compare the original raw scans because on some the "newton's rings" look like dirt and I can't imagine I'd have sent a really filthy book in to be slabbed. I think I mentioned that the backs generally looked OK, and I was wondering if they reverse engineer the seating somehow it would help. Some of the books I got in this submission are OK.

A math/science person I know said that Newton's Rings are actually circles, comes from a round piece of glass interacting with a flat surface and this should be called some kind of flat surface interference, but he's checking further.

I thought the problem occurred when they switched plastics?

I have several hundred old slabs, never saw a ring before these last few submissions...Unless I missed one or two. 

 

Same as me - hundreds of old slabs didn't have them. Going back to the old holders might therefore be a wise interim measure, pending the resolution of the new holder / plastic issue. We'll see I guess. 

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I would agree, and it should be an "inform the customer" approach by the Entity. It is always a bit disappointing when that does not happen, and there is an appearance of nonchalance, on matter how unintentional.

 

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

This was an answer to Marwood, not skypink, to avoid confusion. Timing of post. Apologies.

I know. We like CGC, we like the product. We love the forum. I don't understand why reasonable decent business people would let this rumble on to the detriment of their reputation. I can only think of two reasons for that - the first is that the issue is so bad that the companies future is at risk, and the second is that they are simply arrogant. We hope it's not the former of course,  but the latter will sooner or later result in the former.

Make an announcement! 

 

[I like pie]

On 8/9/2018 at 10:44 AM, I like pie said:

Fed ex just dropped this off

So....a little better 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

3 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

A math/science person I know said that Newton's Rings are actually circles, comes from a round piece of glass interacting with a flat surface and this should be called some kind of flat surface interference, but he's checking further.

To an extent. This phenomenon occurs in final coating/sealing of automobiles. They are almost perfect circles, a bluish/purple effect, becoming a red/orange spectrum, due to....you guessed it...curing time. It is well known in epoxy/terrazzo flooring. A solvent based maintenance coating will never ever work. Never. Chemical resistant urethanes are a whole other issue. The cause is the same though...the molecular (circular) structure of the coating. Then there is a separate issue of water based acrylics, acrylic/urethanes, etc. Not knowing the manufacturer's composition, speculation does not help,  but, we do know that the blue/purplish-red/orange appearance is UV related and high light reflectivity intensifies the appearance. There are neutral wash/UV resistant cleaning methods for plasticized manufactured products, but without knowing content....percent of hardners/resins and raw product, etc., it is a chase your tail issue.

The contamination could be mineral spirits, ethylene glycol (from SS piping in the cooling system in the factory)Toluene cleansing/wiping, isopropyl alcohol (98% or so cleaning regent) etc. We just don't know. I will stop for now, because I know I am getting boring.

[I like pie]

Just got this reply back, "Newton Rings are natural and if after re-holdering and they still remain, there is nothing we can do at this point."

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

8 minutes ago, I like pie said:

Just got this reply back, "Newton Rings are natural and if after re-holdering and they still remain, there is nothing we can do at this point."

 

[Gaard]

Does anyone know if the NRs are there immediately upon slabbing, or if they develop shortly afterwards? If the former,, that would mean that CGC is knowingly shipping these out?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, Gaard said:

Does anyone know if the NRs are there immediately upon slabbing, or if they develop shortly afterwards? If the former,, that would mean that CGC is knowingly shipping these out?

Either issue is possible, depends on moiture vapor transmission levels in teh original product, specific heat capacity, the Vicat softening point, the processing temperature, the sealing heat source property/timing, etc. Take for instance Barex 210. an Acerylonitrile-methyl Acrylate Copolymer. It is an extrusion grade, snd in simple terms, a Resin. It is subject to the same any/all conditions. Barex 218 is no different, basically. And, in finished thermoformed sheet (which BTW van be natural or blue tint), it is not the final step. It still has to go thru the heat seal process. So, who know. We also don't know what took the place of the Barex (I believe this is what was used originally), or the manufacturer. So there is that.....

[DavidTheDavid]

2 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

I know. We like CGC, we like the product. We love the forum. I don't understand why reasonable decent business people would let this rumble on to the detriment of their reputation. I can only think of two reasons for that - the first is that the issue is so bad that the companies future is at risk, and the second is that they are simply arrogant. We hope it's not the former of course,  but the latter will sooner or later result in the former.

Make an announcement! 

 

That CGC maintains this forum suggests they're aware of the value, not to mention risk, of having a channel for direct user feedback. In both my professional and personal experience, forums like this attract some of the most diehard, opinionated, and supportive users. Speaking as a games industry professional, our forums provide us real value, not to mention a fun place for those diehards to interact with one another. More than anything, we know what our players do and don't like about our products. It's our burden to not only consume and utilize that feedback, but to respond to it.

In my world, nothing chaffs players more than unresponsive, non-communicative developers and designers. On the flip side, nothing pleases players more than developers and designers who engage with the community. Through direct engagement, companies can build extraordinary trust and commitment from customers.

Hence the value, and the risk, of a place like this.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone just dropped in to say, "We hear you, folks. We'll be back with a proper statement as soon we can."?

Edited August 27, 2018 by DavidTheDavid

[Get Marwood & I]

11 minutes ago, DavidTheDavid said:

2 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

I know. We like CGC, we like the product. We love the forum. I don't understand why reasonable decent business people would let this rumble on to the detriment of their reputation. I can only think of two reasons for that - the first is that the issue is so bad that the companies future is at risk, and the second is that they are simply arrogant. We hope it's not the former of course,  but the latter will sooner or later result in the former.

Make an announcement! 

 

That CGC maintains this forum suggests they're aware of the value, not to mention risk, of having a channel for direct user feedback. In both my professional and personal experience, forums like this attract some of the most diehard, opinionated, and supportive users. Speaking as a games industry professional, our forums provide us real value, not to mention a fun place for those diehards to interact with one another. More than anything, we know what our players do and don't like about our products. It's our burden to not only consume and utilize that feedback, but to respond to it.

In my world, nothing chaffs players more than unresponsive, non-communicative developers and designers. On the flip side, nothing pleases players more than developers and designers who engage with the community. Through direct engagement, companies can build extraordinary trust and commitment from customers.

Hence the value, and the risk, of a place like this.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone just dropped in to say, "We hear you, folks. We'll be back with a proper statement as soon we can."?

Very well put Davids. It really is that simple. Engage and manage your customers concerns.

 

2 hours ago, I like pie said:

Just got this reply back, "Newton Rings are natural and if after re-holdering and they still remain, there is nothing we can do at this point."

 

'At this point'? Is there a future point at which they will be able to do something? How will we know when that is? How are we expected to respond to this?

I would suggest with disdain. 

Did you pay for the re-holdering shipping Pie?

 

[I like pie]

5 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Very well put Davids. It really is that simple. Engage and manage your customers concerns.

 

'At this point'? Is there a future point at which they will be able to do something? How will we know when that is? How are we expected to respond to this?

I would suggest with disdain. 

Did you pay for the re-holdering shipping Pie?

 

Jennifer @ the office said they would credit my account if I sent the receipt with the book. I haven't checked though.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, I like pie said:

Jennifer @ the office said they would credit my account if I sent the receipt with the book. I haven't checked though.

Is that a monetary refund or a credit you can only redeem against future CGC submissions?

If you don't mind me asking.

[Jeffro.]

2 hours ago, I like pie said:

Just got this reply back, "Newton Rings are natural and if after re-holdering and they still remain, there is nothing we can do at this point."

 

There is something they can do, design a better effin' slab!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, I like pie said:

Jennifer @ the office said they would credit my account if I sent the receipt with the book. I haven't checked though.

Could you clarify? What receipt would you send with the book, and why would they not have a record, or is this the book being sent back a second time, and in that case, would there not still be a record? Not that it matters, but there is a lot more that can be done. Quality Control improvement to the level that the problem no longer exists, and at that point re-holder at no cost for anything...shipping/new casket, etc.