Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[mackenzie999]

Is it fair to assume the OP should have had prior knowledge of PGX's reputation? I belong to a couple of Facebook comics groups and there aren't enough hours in the day to correct the ignorance of PGX's "standards" there. Isn't it perfectly reasonable for him to assume he is getting a complete book unless otherwise stated?

As far as chain of custody goes, that's a tricky one, kind of like discovering you were given a counterfeit bill in your change. Although imperfect, I think responsibility can be shifted to the source; I buy it from a dealer, I shift it to them. If they have records they can pursue the person they acquired it from, all the way back to whoever subbed it in the first place. The lesson here is keep good records for significant purchases.

As far as the cracked slab goes, I view that as a wrapper the book came in; many people crack upon receipt and that is not unreasonable, in fact it's the only way to discover the book was damaged. I'd say the OP is owed his refund, and if the seller is hell-bent on having it slabbed by PGX he could deduct those costs from the refund. Kind of an uncool move but I'd allow that if I had been the OP.

My apologies if these sentiments have already been expressed, I have read most but not all of this thread. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by mackenzie999

[VintageComics]

22 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And for those of you advocating that "he bought a slab, he got exactly what he paid for"...well, no, you see, he didn't. 

He did not get a "PGX 4.5 X-Men #1", despite what the label claimed.

Because PGX...unless they're totally, absolutely corrupt...wouldn't have knowingly put that book...missing two pages mind you...in that slab.

You're not buying a label.

You're buying a BOOK.

So, the label DID NOT MATCH the book inside, and therefore, the buyer DID NOT GET what was advertised.

Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not.

(If it can be proven that PGX knowingly did this, then they're complicit in fraud, and should be sued to the hilt. But that's a side point.)

Frankly, I'm utterly astonished that people are openly advocating "well, that's the risk you take, you rolled the dice and you lost!" with regards to missing pages. 

Since when is missing pages or missed resto a "too bad, you took a gamble, you knew the risk!" issue, regardless of who misses it...?

That's not a "gamble"...taking a gamble means you have a CHANCE to WIN, too, no matter how small. Since when has unknown missing pages been an opportunity to "win", for ANYONE...?

It would be interesting to hear from some lawyers on what the exact legal position is on something like this.

I would assume that the certification company would ultimately be responsible but who exactly would be responsible in trying to make it right is what is in question.

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 hours ago, miraclemet said:

Thanks for a solid hour of Thursday afternoon reading everyone!

My 2 cents. OP bought a $4500 lottery ticket that had a chance of paying off $5500 or even more, but it also had the chance of paying out less. 

PGX is known to mis-identify, mis-grade, miss restoration, miss page counts, "miss" fake signatures.... 

OP paid for something of lesser quality at lesser price, and part of that lesser quality is less certainty. 

The rules of eBay/Paypal probably mean OP can get his money back, but if it had "worked out" for him, would he have paid the difference in the value? Of course not. 

Except that it was not that kind of gamble, and not relevant in this particular situation.

I wish that could be understood. 

I've been thinking about this situation, and I think it most closely relates to this:

You're at a a slot machine. At a normal slot machine, you have a chance of winning, and a chance of losing. You know that going in. 

However, this particular slot machine, a maintenance person took out all the jackpot cherries (I don't know how that would work; suspend disbelief with me for the sake of the argument.)

You don't know that the cherries were taken out. You think the cherries are all there, and you have a legitimate chance...however slim...of hitting them. The casino doesn't realize the cherries were taken out. Nobody knows...but you have ZERO chance of winning on this particular machine.

That's similar to the case here. Had the book come back 4.0 Universal...well, that's the gamble the buyer took, and I suspect there would be no problem. It was a 4.5, now it's a 4.0. It's now "worth less" than what the buyer paid for, but hey, them's the breaks. It could have been a 5.0. Could have been a 6.0 with a press. Who knows? In either scenario, the buyer neither would have a claim on the seller, nor would he owe the seller anything. 

The difference here is those missing pages, which is not part of that "gamble" that everyone is talking about, because it's a very serious problem that is unknown, and unknowable by the buyer UNTIL he/she receives it and has it checked out. "Well, that's the risk you take with PGX!"...except, again, that's an "as is" type of transaction that is not enforceable, especially since the buyer sent the item to another appraiser. He fulfilled his obligation to mitigate his risk, as any small claims court judge will tell you.

Like I said...our little corner of the world looks at slabs weird, in a way that the justice system almost certainly would not. In the real world, the buyer received the book, already appraised, and decided to send it to his own appraiser within a very reasonable amount of time. He doesn't lose

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, mackenzie999 said:

Is it fair to assume the OP should have had prior knowledge of PGX's reputation? I belong to a couple of Facebook comics groups and there aren't enough hours in the day to correct the ignorance of PGX's "standards" there. Isn't it perfectly reasonable for him to assume he is getting a complete book unless otherwise stated?

As far as chain of custody goes, that's a tricky one, kind of like discovering you were given a counterfeit bill in your change. Although imperfect, I think responsibility can be shifted to the source; I buy it from a dealer, I shift it to them. If they have records they can pursue the person they acquired it from, all the way back to whoever subbed it in the first place. The lesson here is keep good records for significant purchases.

As far as the cracked slab goes, I view that as a wrapper the book came in; many people crack upon receipt and that is not unreasonable, in fact it's the only way to discover the book was damaged. I'd say the OP is owed his refund, and if the seller is hell-bent on having it slabbed by PGX he could deduct those costs from the refund. Kind of an uncool move but I'd allow that if I had been the OP.

My apologies if these sentiments have already been expressed, I have read most but not all of this thread. 

I agree with you completely, especially where it deals with the chain of custody argument. The item was represented as being complete.

I acknowledge that the proper thing to do, and the expedient thing to do, can be very, very far apart.

[SteppinRazor]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Except that it was not that kind of gamble, and not relevant in this particular situation.

I wish that could be understood. 

I've been thinking about this situation, and I think it most closely relates to this:

You're at a a slot machine. At a normal slot machine, you have a chance of winning, and a chance of losing. You know that going in. 

However, this particular slot machine, a maintenance person took out all the jackpot cherries (I don't know how that would work; suspend disbelief with me for the sake of the argument.)

You don't know that the cherries were taken out. You think the cherries are all there, and you have a legitimate chance...however slim...of hitting them. The casino doesn't realize the cherries were taken out. Nobody knows...but you have ZERO chance of winning on this particular machine.

That's similar to the case here. Had the book come back 4.0 Universal...well, that's the gamble the buyer took, and I suspect there would be no problem. It was a 4.5, now it's a 4.0. It's now "worth less" than what the buyer paid for, but hey, them's the breaks. It could have been a 5.0. Could have been a 6.0 with a press. Who knows? In either scenario, the buyer neither would have a claim on the seller, nor would he owe the seller anything. 

The difference here is those missing pages, which is not part of that "gamble" that everyone is talking about, because it's a very serious problem that is unknown, and unknowable by the buyer UNTIL he/she receives it and has it checked out. "Well, that's the risk you take with PGX!"...except, again, that's an "as is" type of transaction that is not enforceable, especially since the buyer sent the item to another appraiser. He fulfilled his obligation to mitigate his risk, as any small claims court judge will tell you.

Like I said...our little corner of the world looks at slabs weird, in a way that the justice system almost certainly would not. In the real world, the buyer received the book, already appraised, and decided to send it to his own appraiser within a very reasonable amount of time. He doesn't lose

 

If you're looking for an analogy, I think this one fits better - you come across a labeled, unopened 10 pack of baseball cards.  There is a value attached to it being unopened.  If you open it, you destroy that value.  You buy it at a good price, and do not open it so as not to destroy the value of it being unopened.  You resell it at a profit.  Your buyer opens it and discovers that the manufacturer only placed 8 cards in the pack, even though it is labeled as 10 cards.  How could you possibly be responsible for two missing cards?

 

I can imagine how much it hurts the OP to have spent this kind of money and have it go sour.  But the person who wronged him is not the person who sold it to him.  Unless he subbed it and bribed someone at PGX to label it complete.

Edited August 10, 2018 by SteppinRazor

[frozentundraguy]

I can see where most sides of the argument make some sense.

PGX does not always do a thorough job of grading, not noticing 2 missing pages is very sloppy work, so they should shoulder the blame.

The seller may have sent the book in to PGX knowing of the problems and voila hits the jackpot with a grade higher than the book rates, so the seller and PGX are to blame. Alternatively the seller may have been just passing the buck, having bought the book from someone else and therefore not be at fault (except if the seller is savvy enough to know the PGX books are more likely to be over graded).

The buyer did not do enough due diligence (research) on the PGX's reputation and bought the book  to obtain a good deal. It would seem a person in the  position of spending nearly 5K on a book would/should do a fair amount of research to be sure the book is really what it is represented to be.

In summary, I think an argument can be made that the buyer and PGX should share the blame for this issue, unless it could be proved that the seller submitted the book to PGX knowing it had issues that might not be spotted when graded.

Edited August 10, 2018 by frozentundraguy

[SteppinRazor]

Unless there was complicit fraud in obtaining the grade/slab, it seems to me 100% of the blame lies on PGX.  The buyer didn't do anything wrong, either. Knowing PGX's reputation is not equivalent to expecting any PGX slab to have a book missing pages in it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

7 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

If you're looking for an analogy, I think this one fits better - you come across a labeled, unopened 10 pack of baseball cards.  There is a value attached to it being unopened.  If you open it, you destroy that value.  You buy it at a good price, and do not open it so as not to destroy the value of it being unopened.  You resell it at a profit.  Your buyer opens it and discovers that the manufacturer only placed 8 cards in the pack, even though it is labeled as 10 cards.  How could you possibly be responsible for two missing cards?

This analogy has already been discussed. Card packs are printed, inserted, and sealed by the manufacturer. A sealed pack has value in being sealed, precisely because of the "mystery factor." You don't know what you're going to get. Once a pack has been opened, there is no mystery, and the value of that seal is gone forever.

Comic books are not slabbed by the printer. There is not supposed to be a "mystery factor" to slabs. You're supposed to know exactly what you're going to get. Slabs, by themselves, have no value. If a seal is opened, you can put the comic back into a new seal, and be returned exactly to where you were before you opened it up the first time, because it's not the seal that matters...it's the book itself.

The analogy doesn't work. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Now that it is agreed that PGX is to blame, how will you prove It? Meaning, is the old Pgx case still with the book?

The situation seems moot to me because it's the same problem, PGX could just say, it's been taken out of the case....

This really is a no win scenario.

Edited August 10, 2018 by ADAMANTIUM

[SteppinRazor]

11 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This analogy has already been discussed. Card packs are printed, inserted, and sealed by the manufacturer. A sealed pack has value in being sealed, precisely because of the "mystery factor." You don't know what you're going to get. Once a pack has been opened, there is no mystery, and the value of that seal is gone forever.

Comic books are not slabbed by the printer. There is not supposed to be a "mystery factor" to slabs. You're supposed to know exactly what you're going to get. Slabs, by themselves, have no value. If a seal is opened, you can put the comic back into a new seal, and be returned exactly to where you were before you opened it up the first time, because it's not the seal that matters...it's the book itself.

The analogy doesn't work. 

The analogy does work, because the commonality is the value attached to the sealed object.  You may get 10 mystery cards, but you expect 10 cards, as that is what is on the label. It may be a mystery whose cards are in there, but you expect baseball players' cards in a baseball card pack.  An empty slab has no value but neither does an empty yet sealed pack of cards, so that is irrelevant to the discussion.  The slab absolutely adds a value, I don't think I need to explain to you why a slabbed comic costs more than a raw comic.   If you buy a slabbed comic, and it sells for $50 raw, and $500 slabbed at X grade, and you crack it out to verify all the pages are there, you have spent $500 for a $50 comic.  If you then resubmit the comic to get reslabbed, and receive the same X grade, then you have spent $500+say $35 for a $500 comic.

Edited August 10, 2018 by SteppinRazor

[VintageComics]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Shroedinger's Cat yet.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Nevermind

I'm just thinking it's moot because there is no way to "prove" anything. The burden of proof falls on the buyer and there is no longer "proof" without pics before and after, or cgc keeping notes of the PGX case and their notes. With proof these scenarios would have a clearer picture.

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Shroedinger's Cat yet.

 

 

Just now, ADAMANTIUM said:

Nevermind

I'm just thinking it's moot because there is no way to "prove" anything. The burden of proof falls on the buyer and there is no longer "proof" without pics before and after, or cgc keeping notes of the PGX case and their notes. With proof these scenarios would have a clearer picture.

I mean really, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop. 

[frozentundraguy]

16 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Unless there was complicit fraud in obtaining the grade/slab, it seems to me 100% of the blame lies on PGX.  The buyer didn't do anything wrong, either. Knowing PGX's reputation is not equivalent to expecting any PGX slab to have a book missing pages in it.

 

That was also my conclusion. There is no problem if PGX does a solid job of grading.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Unless there was complicit fraud in obtaining the grade/slab, it seems to me 100% of the blame lies on PGX.  The buyer didn't do anything wrong, either. Knowing PGX's reputation is not equivalent to expecting any PGX slab to have a book missing pages in it.

Let's entertain that idea for a second: PGX is 100% to blame. 

So, is PGX...or any grading company....therefore responsible for the difference in value, because they made a mistake (let's assume it was a mistake, and not just gross negligence)...?

If the book had two pages missing when it was subbed to PGX...and it probably did...who is the one who benefitted from the difference in value for that mistake? The submitter/seller? Or PGX?

The submitter, obviously. 

So what court on earth would hold an appraiser responsible for the difference in value, based on an appraising mistake of its condition...? Keep in mind...these appraisals are NOT monetary...they are strictly condition appraisals. PGX and other grading companies are not assigning a FMV for which they can then be held liable. They are only assigning an opinion as to the condition of the item. How the market then values those items is not their concern. In fact, CGC used to have some verbiage expressly disclaiming market value in their terms, but I can't find it. Basically, it said how the market valued the item wasn't up to them, and they couldn't be held responsible for any of that. 

"But, because of that mistake, the item has the appearance of being more valuable than it actually is!" 

Granted.

But the reality is, that value isn't real, because the book was never actually in the condition the label claimed, because of human error. 

"What do you mean, that value isn't real? Somebody...maybe several somebodies...paid it! That MAKES it real!" 

No. That value was based on an erroneous perception which, while unknown, was ALWAYS erroneous.  

So you have to look at who benefited from the mistake. PGX? No, they were just paid their standard grading fee.

The person who benefited from this error...and the person who has to give back that benefit when the error is discovered...is the submitter/seller.

And that is what the law calls "unjust enrichment": benefitting at the expense of another. CGC has taken the position....and perhaps set a bad precedent...of taking responsibility for these mistakes on their part when they have occurred, but nevertheless, the one who received the unjust enrichment...whether they were aware of it or not...is ultimately the party who is responsible for paying it back. 

Thankfully, at least with CGC, it's so rare, it's of little concern. And I imagine CGC is very diligent about that for precisely that reason.

[aszumilo]

31 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Shroedinger's Cat yet.

 

I believe it was mentioned a few pages back.  I'll have to look for it.

[aszumilo]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:11 AM, Mystafo said:

The graded comic holder is in essence "Schrodinger's box" as until its opened and it's contents observed the actual state of the contents is governed by probability?

@VintageComics Here it is.  Bottom of page 5.

Edited August 10, 2018 by aszumilo

[RockMyAmadeus]

48 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

The analogy does work, because the commonality is the value attached to the sealed object.  You may get 10 mystery cards, but you expect 10 cards, as that is what is on the label. It may be a mystery whose cards are in there, but you expect baseball players' cards in a baseball card pack.  An empty slab has no value but neither does an empty yet sealed pack of cards, so that is irrelevant to the discussion.  The slab absolutely adds a value, I don't think I need to explain to you why a slabbed comic costs more than a raw comic.   If you buy a slabbed comic, and it sells for $50 raw, and $500 slabbed at X grade, and you crack it out to verify all the pages are there, you have spent $500 for a $50 comic.  If you then resubmit the comic to get reslabbed, and receive the same X grade, then you have spent $500+say $35 for a $500 comic.

I've explained, in detail, why the analogy doesn't work, including details such as the "mystery factor" and the "resealable factor", which you chose not to address. We weren't discussing an empty "yet sealed" pack, so I agree, that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Slabs, in and of themselves, have no value. Try and sell a slab that once contained an Action Comics #1, and see what you get for it.

You are operating under the same erroneous perception that much of the slabbed market operates under: that it is the SLAB that makes the comic "valuable." I understand why you would think that, because it's tempting and easy to do so. Nevertheless, it is not an accurate way of regarding a slabbed book. What makes the package valuable is the comic. Remove that comic from the slab, and that slab has no value. Put that comic BACK into a slab, and...provided nothing has changed otherwise...the value of that comic is the same as it was in the previous slab. 

The value, then, that the slab "adds" is INTANGIBLE. The value is for the OPINION that comes with the slab, not the slab itself. But that opinion doesn't materially change the book. It only convinces buyers to be willing to pay more for it. The book is what it is, in the condition that it is. That's where all the REAL, ACTUAL value lies. All CGC does is confirm that "yes, that book is Comic Book Z #13, and we think it's in this condition." That's it. They confirm what already is. They don't actually add anything to the item. And if they add nothing to it, then no, the slab does not have value in and of itself.

And you are incorrect that a deslabbed books is only worth what an equivalent "raw" book is worth. I have bought, and sold, books that were cracked out of slabs, but which had their labels present. These were, once again, raw books, but with the added feature of having been graded by CGC at one point (depending on whether or not I trust the provenance presented.) Those books did not revert back to their "original raw" value...on the contrary, they sold for a slight discount off of a slabbed copy in the same grade.

Why?

Because the value is in the COMIC, not the slab, and the acceptance of an OPINION, which is INTANGIBLE, and does not necessarily become void merely because that book is no longer in a slab.

And, after all, in this case...the PGX label didn't vanish into thin air, did it...?

Edited August 10, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Dr. Love]

Sure it's the grading company's fault.  Ask nicely and I'm pretty sure you'd get your grading fee back.  Maybe shipping.  And you wouldn't be entitled to any of that.  Check out the terms and conditions for the different companies.  PGX guarantees nothing, CGC guarantees that it's an "authentic" comic.  Say what?  You think that terminology is some kind of goofy mistake on their part - think again.

As far as buying and selling, Schrodingers Cat is a reasonable sort of comparison.  You're buying a black box purported to contain a book. You're really buying a document with a front cover that you can see and a back cover that you can see in a plastic case.  If you get the thing that is pictured on the listing, then you've got no beef.  The argument that a certain array of letters on a document, the title, conveys any certainty about a number of pages or even what is contained between the covers is commonly assumed but not necessarily true. 

It's critical to understand this.  You're buying something that can be visually inspected - up to a certain point.  A good analogy is a house sale.  A seller must disclose those things he knows about the house.  A buyer can inspect.  But you can't open every wall looking for mold, that is you could ask but you wouldn't get permission.  And then if you buy the house and down the road you find mold behind that shower wall?  You can't go back to the seller.  You bought a black box purported to be a clean house but it aint.  You have recourse - don't buy a house, build a house.  Same thing with slabs.  You want to make absolutely sure of the page count?  Buy a raw book and inspect.

[RockMyAmadeus]

That erroneous perception, by the way, is the entire reason why the market has become convinced that it's wise to pay $2,000 for a 9.8, and only $500 for a 9.6...even for the exact same copy of the exact same book, in the exact same condition, graded at different times. That makes that erroneous perception very, very dangerous, and why so many people clamor and claw to make sure they get the best possible grades, all the time. It's "value" that rests on nothing but a mindset, which makes it very precarious indeed.