Journey Into Mystery 83 CGC 5.0 Switched label?? 2 2

[James J Johnson]

6 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Nice job, JJ.   

There's been a lot more. I've been noting his listings for awhile. These are only the ones that closed either completed or sold that are still available to see on ebay using the "search seller" function (past listings). He's been at this for awhile. Since long before the oldest of the listings available here to still see on ebay.

 

[kav]

Not only poss fraud but besmirching CGCs rep in my opinion with those low grade books claiming CGC gave much higher grades.

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Not only poss fraud but besmirching CGCs rep in my opinion with those low grade books claiming CGC gave much higher grades.

It's grand larceny on a large scale, mail fraud, and whatever laws he's violating by misusing CGC's trademark and intellectual property to commit his fraud. He's routinely mail-transacting multi-thousand dollar CGC "slab-tampered with" books. And if he doesn't have a verifiable source for these, other than, "some dude sold them to me at a show, I paid cash and didn't get his name", then it's all on him.

[Mmehdy]

its just a shame what people do on ebay

[comicdonna]

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

It's grand larceny on a large scale, mail fraud, and whatever laws he's violating by misusing CGC's trademark and intellectual property to commit his fraud. He's routinely mail-transacting multi-thousand dollar CGC "slab-tampered with" books. And if he doesn't have a verifiable source for these, other than, "some dude sold them to me at a show, I paid cash and didn't get his name", then it's all on him.

I'm guessing Mark Zaid will be looking into this.  

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

Nice job, JJ.   

Thank you, Sir. These were all very easy to produce. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful to Brittany by saving everything apparently fraudulent that I saw over the last year or so, just surfing ebay, from much farther back than is available using the seller past listings search engine now, which is only a look back two months or so. I'm sure if the CGC legal team or authorities they speak to think they have a case, they can go much farther back than this by requesting his past listings and the identities of his buyers from both ebay and paypal. Everything sold online leaves an indelible trail. .

[thehumantorch]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Thank you, Sir. These were all very easy to produce. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful to Brittany by saving everything apparently fraudulent that I saw over the last year or so, just surfing ebay, from much farther back than is available using the seller past listings search engine now, which is only a look back two months or so. I'm sure if the CGC legal team or authorities they speak to think they have a case, they can go much farther back than this by requesting his past listings and the identities of his buyers from both ebay and paypal. Everything sold online leaves an indelible trail. .

Doesn't CGC currently capture images of each book they grade?  If so comparing stored images with the images provided by the seller for each bar code would help to establish if these  labels have been swapped - and yes, clearly they have and clearly this seller is a POS. 

If they don't capture images of each book perhaps they should, at least for books of a certain value threshold 

[kav]

4 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Doesn't CGC currently capture images of each book they grade?  If so comparing stored images with the images provided by the seller for each bar code would help to establish if these  labels have been swapped - and yes, clearly they have and clearly this seller is a POS. 

If they don't capture images of each book perhaps they should, at least for books of a certain value threshold 

@Brittany M.

[James J Johnson]

8 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Doesn't CGC currently capture images of each book they grade?  If so comparing stored images with the images provided by the seller for each bar code would help to establish if these  labels have been swapped - and yes, clearly they have and clearly this seller is a POS. 

If they don't capture images of each book perhaps they should, at least for books of a certain value threshold 

I'll bet that Heritage's resource; their permanent auction archives will have images of some of these CGC "high grades" prior to the switcheroo, in the original slabs from whence they came. Since you'd have to search, for example, all their images of say, JIM 83 CGC 1.8 to 3.5s to find the original book that was switched for mating with the 5.0 label, it can be time consuming. Especially if you're looking for the book that was switched for one now mated with a 9.4 label that could have been anything from 6.5 to 9.0.

Heritage offers the most comprehensive photo file of CGC graded books, but if it's not there, it could also be on Comiclink, ComicConnect, or any other primary dealer with a huge inventory that you can still see past sales on that website.

Time consuming, but I'll bet at least half of his crack and relabel books are available online in their original holder with the original grade. As soon as I can dedicate some time to the hunt, I'll see what I can find. Each of these books has its own set of flaws and printing mechanics that readily identify it. The looking isn't difficult, it's just the time to do it effectively that can be daunting.

Heritage is definitely the first place to start though, their permanent archives are second to none and an extremely valuable research resource as well as being an excellent tutorial in understanding CGC grading by studying the images. .

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

I'll bet that Heritage's resource; their permanent auction archives will have images of some of these CGC "high grades" prior to the switcheroo, in the original slabs from whence they came. Since you'd have to search, for example, all their images of say, JIM 83 CGC 1.8 to 3.5s to find the original book that was switched for mating with the 5.0 label, it can be time consuming. Especially if you're looking for the book that was switched for one now mated with a 9.4 label that could have been anything from 6.5 to 9.0.

Heritage offers the most comprehensive photo file of CGC graded books, but if it's not there, it could also be on Comiclink, ComicConnect, or any other primary dealer with a huge inventory that you can still see past sales on that website.

Time consuming, but I'll bet at least half of his crack and relabel books are available online in their original holder with the original grade. As soon as I can dedicate some time to the hunt, I'll see what I can find. Each of these books has its own set of flaws and printing mechanics that readily identify it. The looking isn't difficult, it's just the time to do it effectively that can be daunting.

Heritage is definitely the first place to start though, their permanent archives are second to none and an extremely valuable research resource as well as being an excellent tutorial in understanding CGC grading by studying the images. .

With enough effort perhaps we could identify some of these book's original grade.  Perhaps not.  There are a lot of possible sources for valuable books that we can't search including older ebay sales, local dealers, shows, web based dealers and some auction sites.   It would be wonderful if CGC could punch in the unique bar code number and prove that the book in the case doesn't match the drapes.

The other concern is that these books could not only be lower grade, they could be restored or incomplete, anything is possible when you're swapping out the label.  Other than the case exhibiting damage it's the perfect crime, invisible interior defects hidden inside a grading companies case.

[kav]

3 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

With enough effort perhaps we could identify some of these book's original grade.  Perhaps not.  There are a lot of possible sources for valuable books that we can't search including older ebay sales, local dealers, shows, web based dealers and some auction sites.   It would be wonderful if CGC could punch in the unique bar code number and prove that the book in the case doesn't match the drapes.

The other concern is that these books could not only be lower grade, they could be restored or incomplete, anything is possible when you're swapping out the label.  Other than the case exhibiting damage it's the perfect crime, invisible interior defects hidden inside a grading companies case.

yep you could have a Hulk 181 with a Cap Nomad interior or some Archie or something.

[thehumantorch]

Just now, kav said:

yep you could have a Hulk 181 with a Cap Nomad interior or some Archie or something.

Hulk 181 missing MVS would be perfect.

[James J Johnson]

8 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

With enough effort perhaps we could identify some of these book's original grade.  Perhaps not.  There are a lot of possible sources for valuable books that we can't search including older ebay sales, local dealers, shows, web based dealers and some auction sites.   It would be wonderful if CGC could punch in the unique bar code number and prove that the book in the case doesn't match the drapes.

The other concern is that these books could not only be lower grade, they could be restored or incomplete, anything is possible when you're swapping out the label.  Other than the case exhibiting damage it's the perfect crime, invisible interior defects hidden inside a grading companies case.

The cracks or fissures/chips in the case, left in the aftermath is the key. Floating label or welded into the well, you can't get to it without leaving some type of visible damage on the case. The CGC slabs cannot be compromised without evidence of the tampering or attempt to do so. The ones that examine their slabs as closely as the comic within catch it, send it back if not mentioned in his listing, and then he relists it, rinse and repeat. Take a look. He's had to resell some of them because the buyer either missed the fine print about the cracks or smelled a rat when they saw the case and how miserably overgraded the book was.

 

[James J Johnson]

15 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

With enough effort perhaps we could identify some of these book's original grade.  Perhaps not.  There are a lot of possible sources for valuable books that we can't search including older ebay sales, local dealers, shows, web based dealers and some auction sites.   It would be wonderful if CGC could punch in the unique bar code number and prove that the book in the case doesn't match the drapes.

The other concern is that these books could not only be lower grade, they could be restored or incomplete, anything is possible when you're swapping out the label.  Other than the case exhibiting damage it's the perfect crime, invisible interior defects hidden inside a grading companies case.

The slabs that are cracked (that he's finagled the label on) exhibit the same areas of damage! Areas that normally would not be affected by normal transit or dropped damage. The slabs and images of the cracks are evidence enough, a major tell, of what's being done and how the case is being manipulated. That common placement of the damage is fairly unique and atypical of the area that would need to be affected to fiddle with the label area. It's an unmistakable common pattern of his "damaged" slabs. .

[thehumantorch]

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

The cracks or fissures/chips in the case, left in the aftermath is the key. Floating label or welded into the well, you can't get to it without leaving some type of visible damage on the case. The CGC slabs cannot be compromised without evidence of the tampering or attempt to do so. The ones that examine their slabs as closely as the comic within catch it, send it back if not mentioned in his listing, and then he relists it, rinse and repeat. Take a look. He's had to resell some of them because the buyer either missed the fine print about the cracks or smelled a rat when they saw the case and how miserably overgraded the book was.

 

Absolutely, but some buyers don't know how a CGC case is constructed.  He probably has more than a 50% return rate but he's just playing the numbers waiting for suckers.  And the cases are easy to damage, damage at the top near the label doesn't prove there's tampering.

[James J Johnson]

4 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Absolutely, but some buyers don't know how a CGC case is constructed.  He probably has more than a 50% return rate but he's just playing the numbers waiting for suckers.  And the cases are easy to damage, damage at the top near the label doesn't prove there's tampering.

Where he's jimmying them open from, it sure does point to tampering. He's prying from the side near the top, laterally dead-centered to the label. There's no random aspect to the damaged consistent location.

[spidermanbeyond]

Just read this thread and catching up.  The older slabs are easier to crack slightly and label swap.  One buyer of the DD #1 noticed it and returned.  The other buyers probably are not aware as someone mentioned.

Seller is from Eugene, Oregon.  NUFF SAID.   If I see a seller from there, I run for the hills.  I hope CGC can do something about this seller.  

Edited October 16, 2018 by spidermanbeyond

[VintageComics]

5 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

Doesn't CGC currently capture images of each book they grade?

No. But i think CBCS does.

[tabcom]

Don't wait for eBay, cgc, legal representation, nor a congressional investigation to resolve this.

If everyone reading this thread doxed bargainhuntersstore via eBay messaging, he would get scared and withdrawal from his unethical business practices.

With respects to his customers, the old saying goes, 'you can't con an honest man.'

In otherwords, the buyers got what the deserved.

[tabcom]

1 minute ago, tabcom said:

Don't wait for eBay, cgc, legal representation, nor a congressional investigation to resolve this.

If everyone reading this thread doxed bargainhuntersstore via eBay messaging, he would get scared and withdrawal from his unethical business practices.

With respects to his customers, the old saying goes, 'you can't con an honest man.'

In otherwords, the buyers got what he deserved.