SS on a non-witnessed signed-exclusive variant? 0

[SBRobin]

I have a Buffy #1 variant signed by Dan Panosian. The variant was limited to 100 issues and all were signed by Dan. If I submit to CGC would they still slab it as a qualified? Or is there any chance that it comes back unqualified since the nature of the variant is that it is signed. I'm assuming there is no way it could come back SS since not actually witnessed, but I really don't want that green yellow label. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by SBRobin

[ADAMANTIUM]

Unfortunately....I've been told by cgc that the only way to get an unwitnessed Sig for yellow label is to go to a con where the artist is attending, go to CGC at the con for a form, have the artist fill it out, and have a facilitator pick up the book and the form.... then it will be considered "witnessed"

To answer your question, no sending it to CGC won't get anything but a green qualified label.... unless you follow the steps for the form at a con...but that in itself is a chore and will cost money...

[SBRobin]

8 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Unfortunately....I've been told by cgc that the only way to get an unwitnessed Sig for yellow label is to go to a con where the artist is attending, go to CGC at the con for a form, have the artist fill it out, and have a facilitator pick up the book and the form.... then it will be considered "witnessed"

To answer your question, no sending it to CGC won't get anything but a green qualified label.... unless you follow the steps for the form at a con...but that in itself is a chore and will cost money...

Oh yeah, I don't know what I'm thinking. It wouldn't have a yellow label at all and all issues would be graded as green. I wonder what they would grade it as if I submitted it at a con to be witnessed, and had Dan sign over his previous signature. I'm not actually going to do that, but it's an interesting thought. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

16 minutes ago, SBRobin said:

Oh yeah, I don't know what I'm thinking. It wouldn't have a yellow label at all and all issues would be graded as green. I wonder what they would grade it as if I submitted it at a con to be witnessed, and had Dan sign over his previous signature. I'm not actually going to do that, but it's an interesting thought. 

They would probably just tell you about the form and have it done that way, but either way you'd probably have to pay Dan's Sig fee (if he has one) so I'm not sure  resigning would be quicker I guess 

 

[Turtle]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:57 PM, SBRobin said:

Oh yeah, I don't know what I'm thinking. It wouldn't have a yellow label at all and all issues would be graded as green. I wonder what they would grade it as if I submitted it at a con to be witnessed, and had Dan sign over his previous signature. I'm not actually going to do that, but it's an interesting thought. 

Believe it or not, this very thought has been brought up dozens of times on these boards over the years.  I'm very glad to hear that you won't be doing this.  It speaks to your character. 

Basically, this would be a form of deception.  CGC has stated that they are not on board with this practice and books will be graded either with a sizable grade penalty or it's possible they'd refuse to grade the book.  I wouldn't recommend attempting to get an artist to sign over an old signature in an attempt to cover it up and pass it off as Signature Series.

I don't know much about this particular Buffy variant.  You say it was limited to 100 issues and Dan signed all of them.  Does this mean the variant itself only has 100 copies and Dan signed each one?  Or does this mean that out of all the copies printed, Dan signed 100 as some form of limited edition run?  In other words, is the only difference between the regular version and the variant Dan's signature?

[ADAMANTIUM]

12 minutes ago, Turtle said:

On 2/1/2019 at 5:57 PM, SBRobin said:

Oh yeah, I don't know what I'm thinking. It wouldn't have a yellow label at all and all issues would be graded as green. I wonder what they would grade it as if I submitted it at a con to be witnessed, and had Dan sign over his previous signature. I'm not actually going to do that, but it's an interesting thought. 

Believe it or not, this very thought has been brought up dozens of times on these boards over the years.  I'm very glad to hear that you won't be doing this.  It speaks to your character. 

Basically, this would be a form of deception.  CGC has stated that they are not on board with this practice and books will be graded either with a sizable grade penalty or it's possible they'd refuse to grade the book.  I wouldn't recommend attempting to get an artist to sign over an old signature in an attempt to cover it up and pass it off as Signature Series.

I don't know much about this particular Buffy variant.  You say it was limited to 100 issues and Dan signed all of them.  Does this mean the variant itself only has 100 copies and Dan signed each one?  Or does this mean that out of all the copies printed, Dan signed 100 as some form of limited edition run?  In other words, is the only difference between the regular version and the variant Dan's signature?

Just to clarify, what I suggested was not a resignature over the older one....  CGC says if the artist is already at a con, then cgc can provide a form to obtain yellow label...

 no one came out and said that I suggested that but  thought that I'd double check...  

On 2/1/2019 at 5:46 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Unfortunately....I've been told by cgc that the only way to get an unwitnessed Sig for yellow label is to go to a con where the artist is attending, go to CGC at the con for a form, have the artist fill it out, and have a facilitator pick up the book and the form.... then it will be considered "witnessed"

To answer your question, no sending it to CGC won't get anything but a green qualified label.... unless you follow the steps for the form at a con...but that in itself is a chore and will cost money...

 

[Turtle]

2 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just to clarify, what I suggested was not a resignature over the older one....  CGC says if the artist is already at a con, then cgc can provide a form to obtain yellow label...

 no one came out and said that I suggested that but  thought that I'd double check...  

 

Nope, definitely wasn't referring to you.  I was speaking specifically to the post I quoted. 

Now regarding the OTHER post:

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:46 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Unfortunately....I've been told by cgc that the only way to get an unwitnessed Sig for yellow label is to go to a con where the artist is attending, go to CGC at the con for a form, have the artist fill it out, and have a facilitator pick up the book and the form.... then it will be considered "witnessed"

To answer your question, no sending it to CGC won't get anything but a green qualified label.... unless you follow the steps for the form at a con...but that in itself is a chore and will cost money...

I'm not saying this isn't true, but if it is, I'm personally disappointed as it flies in the face of the way Signature Series has operated since the beginning.  SS books aren't simply "verified"...they're "witnessed"...as in someone they trust has attested to the fact that they physically witnessed the creator signing the book. 

Are you saying that you can take a book signed by Joe Mama to a show where Joe Mama is attending, get a form and a witness, and get the old signature verified by Joe to be eligible for SS?  Is that what you're saying?  If so, do you have something in writing that states this?

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you.   Clarification is appreciated.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Just now, Turtle said:

Nope, definitely wasn't referring to you.  I was speaking specifically to the post I quoted. 

Now regarding the OTHER post:

I'm not saying this isn't true, but if it is, I'm personally disappointed as it flies in the face of the way Signature Series has operated since the beginning.  SS books aren't simply "verified"...they're "witnessed"...as in someone they trust has attested to the fact that they physically witnessed the creator signing the book. 

Are you saying that you can take a book signed by Joe Mama to a show where Joe Mama is attending, get a form and a witness, and get the old signature verified by Joe to be eligible for SS?  Is that what you're saying?  If so, do you have something in writing that states this?

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you.   Clarification is appreciated.

That's what I've been quoted over the phone by cgc, that yes if it is already signed, go to a con where the artist and CGC are both in attendance, ask cgc for the form that states it was his/her sig, grab a witness, artist signs form authenticating the sig.

It has mostly been talked about in the "Campbell" thread in modern..... SO don't get mad at me   I didn't make it up nor say it was good or bad either  

But what would be the problem in say Campbell, where he has his own COAs and know's his sigs and what he has signed to sign a form in front of a witness?

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

6 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Nope, definitely wasn't referring to you.  I was speaking specifically to the post I quoted. 

Now regarding the OTHER post:

I'm not saying this isn't true, but if it is, I'm personally disappointed as it flies in the face of the way Signature Series has operated since the beginning.  SS books aren't simply "verified"...they're "witnessed"...as in someone they trust has attested to the fact that they physically witnessed the creator signing the book. 

Are you saying that you can take a book signed by Joe Mama to a show where Joe Mama is attending, get a form and a witness, and get the old signature verified by Joe to be eligible for SS?  Is that what you're saying?  If so, do you have something in writing that states this?

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you.   Clarification is appreciated.

That's what I've been quoted over the phone by cgc, that yes if it is already signed, go to a con where the artist and CGC are both in attendance, ask cgc for the form that states it was his/her sig, grab a witness, artist signs form authenticating the sig.

It has mostly been talked about in the "Campbell" thread in modern..... SO don't get mad at me   I didn't make it up nor say it was good or bad either  

But what would be the problem in say Campbell, where he has his own COAs and know's his sigs and what he has signed to sign a form in front of a witness?

as no I don't have it in writing, but after I called CGC and asked, it was supposedly accomplished in the Campbell thread.....

But maybe call cgc and ask for details, I talked to a "guy" I vaguely recall his name, but don't think I remember well enough to say his name for sure  

[Turtle]

Just now, ADAMANTIUM said:

as no I don't have it in writing, but after I called CGC and asked, it was supposedly accomplished in the Campbell thread.....

But maybe call cgc and ask for details, I talked to a "guy" I vaguely recall his name, but don't think I remember well enough to say his name for sure  

MAYBE what you're talking about is books that are already signed by Campbell (or any other artist) that are still in his (or her) possession. 

For example, if Campbell signs a big stack of books to sell at a show and he keeps the books in his possession until the point of sale, then there is a protocol in place to get that book graded for Signature Series.  In this case, though the actual signature wasn't witnessed, the chain of custody is never broken.

However, if you bought a signed book from Campbell's website and tried to take it to a show to make it eligible for Signature Series, you're out of luck.  The chain of custody has been broken. 

If someone has something to the contrary, I'll be happy to learn about it. 

[Turtle]

@ADAMANTIUM

Thanks for the tag.  I saw the post in the J. Scott Campbell thread here, but it still seems a little ambiguous based strictly on the text for two reasons:

Neal Adams commonly has pre-signed/sketched items for sale at shows, so saying Neal Adams does "this" while not specifying exactly what "this" is leaves it open to interpretation.

 and

The confirmation post stating that you talked to Dean only said that if CGC and the artist are both at the show that it's possible to get a book signed for SS.  I wrote earlier that this is the case and the statement doesn't confirm the real sticking point here...at least not based strictly on the text. 

The point of clarification needed is whether or not signatures not in possession of the artist can later be brought back to an artist in the presence of a CGC representative to make the book eligible for Signature Series.  It's my understanding that they cannot. 

I may have to call CGC to get some clarification.

[ADAMANTIUM]

19 minutes ago, Turtle said:

MAYBE what you're talking about is books that are already signed by Campbell (or any other artist) that are still in his (or her) possession. 

For example, if Campbell signs a big stack of books to sell at a show and he keeps the books in his possession until the point of sale, then there is a protocol in place to get that book graded for Signature Series.  In this case, though the actual signature wasn't witnessed, the chain of custody is never broken.

However, if you bought a signed book from Campbell's website and tried to take it to a show to make it eligible for Signature Series, you're out of luck.  The chain of custody has been broken. 

If someone has something to the contrary, I'll be happy to learn about it. 

Maybe... I thought I was pretty clear on the phone with him, I tagged you that it was Dean at CGC that I talked to, but I'll refrain from mentioning it to anyone else, I wouldn't want to spread misinformation..

If I ever did it personally then that might be different   but I doubt that I'll try to do it 

[ADAMANTIUM]

10 minutes ago, Turtle said:

@ADAMANTIUM

Thanks for the tag.  I saw the post in the J. Scott Campbell thread here, but it still seems a little ambiguous based strictly on the text for two reasons:

Neal Adams commonly has pre-signed/sketched items for sale at shows, so saying Neal Adams does "this" while not specifying exactly what "this" is leaves it open to interpretation.

 and

The confirmation post stating that you talked to Dean only said that if CGC and the artist are both at the show that it's possible to get a book signed for SS.  I wrote earlier that this is the case and the statement doesn't confirm the real sticking point here...at least not based strictly on the text. 

The point of clarification needed is whether or not signatures not in possession of the artist can later be brought back to an artist in the presence of a CGC representative to make the book eligible for Signature Series.  It's my understanding that they cannot. 

I may have to call CGC to get some clarification.

I called cgc again, you were right...

I spoke with Dean again and he said Neal Adams site has a service that sends it to CGC, long story short Dean Said once it is in my hands off a site and not the artists then the chain of custody is broken... you were right...

I'll go back to the Campbell thread and clatify... my bad for miscommunication 

edit @SBRobin you should know too...

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by ADAMANTIUM

[Turtle]

2 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I called cgc again, you were right...

I spoke with Dean again and he said Neal Adams site has a service that sends it to CGC, long story short Dean Said once it is in my hands off a site and not the artists then the chain of custody is broken... you were right...

I'll go back to the Campbell thread and clatify... my bad for miscommunication 

 

No need to feel bad.  I genuinely thought there was a chance that CGC changed their stance on SS signings.  I'm glad they didn't. 

I'm just happy to get some clarification.  I appreciate you calling and reporting back with the facts.  Thanks!

[SBRobin]

8 hours ago, Turtle said:

Believe it or not, this very thought has been brought up dozens of times on these boards over the years.  I'm very glad to hear that you won't be doing this.  It speaks to your character. 

Basically, this would be a form of deception.  CGC has stated that they are not on board with this practice and books will be graded either with a sizable grade penalty or it's possible they'd refuse to grade the book.  I wouldn't recommend attempting to get an artist to sign over an old signature in an attempt to cover it up and pass it off as Signature Series.

I don't know much about this particular Buffy variant.  You say it was limited to 100 issues and Dan signed all of them.  Does this mean the variant itself only has 100 copies and Dan signed each one?  Or does this mean that out of all the copies printed, Dan signed 100 as some form of limited edition run?  In other words, is the only difference between the regular version and the variant Dan's signature?

I didn't even think there was anything wrong with doing that. I figured it was just a way to get around a technicality in order to get a Universal label on a book that ordinarily would always be a Qualified label since it has a non-witnessed signature. The purpose of that would purely be to avoid the inherent stigma of the qualified label rather than trying any act of deception. I know if the artist signed in a different place it would still be qualified because it has a second unwitnessed signature, but I thought maybe by signing directly over the original, it would "cancel it out" and CGC wouldn't have an issue with it since you're not trying to pass off a second unauthenticated signature. I realize now I asked my original question incorrectly. I should have asked if CGC would give a Universal label on the variant rather than a qualified, since they know the sig is legit. I realize now though that this is just too rare of a circumstance for it to be practical for them to have an exception for.

Regarding this variant, yes, it was limited to 100 issues and every one was signed by Dan, except for one which was signed by Joss Whedon. I would like my copy slabbed but I just don't want a green label, even though anyone who buys it has a guarantee that the Dan signature is legit. The person who tries to sell the Dan + Joss copy though can only guarantee the Dan signature

[SBRobin]

5 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I spoke with Dean again and he said Neal Adams site has a service that sends it to CGC, long story short Dean Said once it is in my hands off a site and not the artists then the chain of custody is broken... you were right...

 

What you brought up is interesting. I like that policy because I don't necessarily trust an artist to authenticate their own sig. Can you imagine Stan Lee doing this? I know if you pay the same fee for them to authenticate as sign it doesn't seem like there is any benefit, but you could always have a case where a book has a forged (but realistic) sig, you then get it SSed by another artist, and then decide to take it back to the fake sig artist and have them authenticate it to remove the green label. 

 

I was trying to figure out if CGC had any type of consideration on a book where you can guarantee the signature is authentic because 100% of the books were signed. I have this brand new book just as it came from the publisher and there is zero way for me to obtain a universal label on it.

Edited February 8, 2019 by SBRobin

[ADAMANTIUM]

9 minutes ago, SBRobin said:

What you brought up is interesting. I like that policy because I don't necessarily trust an artist to authenticate their own sig. Can you imagine Stan Lee doing this? I know if you pay the same fee for them to authenticate as sign it doesn't seem like there is any benefit, but you could always have a case where a book has a forged (but realistic) sig, you then get it SSed by another artist, and then decide to take it back to the fake sig artist and have them authenticate it to remove the green label. 

 

I was trying to figure out if CGC had any type of consideration on a book where you can guarantee the signature is authentic because 100% of the books were signed. I have this brand new book just as it came from the publisher and there is zero way for me to obtain a universal label on it.

Ya I'm kind of glad they don't either...

Shame about no blue universal, but since that is not possible, what is possible is everyone would know about it even if it was in a green qualified label?

I know some books are recognized by collectors with qualified, but I'm not sure about your specific issue..

There was a Michael Turner supergirl issue that was like that, came signed and everyone got a green label

Edited February 8, 2019 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Ya I'm kind of glad they don't either...

Shame about no blue universal, but since that is not possible, what is possible is everyone would know about it even if it was in a green qualified label?

I know some books are recognized by collectors with qualified, but I'm not sure about your specific issue..

There was a Michael Turner supergirl issue that was like that, came signed and everyone got a green label

I edited

 

[SBRobin]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

everyone would know even if it was in a green qualified label?

 

That's true. Kind of a dumb thing for me to be annoyed about because of that. I've just grown to have a negative association with green labels, as irrational as that may be in this case.  I appreciate your insight into it. 

[Ron C.]

12 minutes ago, SBRobin said:

That's true. Kind of a dumb thing for me to be annoyed about because of that. I've just grown to have a negative association with green labels, as irrational as that may be in this case.  I appreciate your insight into it. 

I don't mind Green labels (over the other's Red) although I certainly prefer Blues and Yellows. I appreciate the fact that CGC will only Yellow label "witnessed" signatures.  My one hope is that CGC will list their green labels with a slight difference.... if the signature is obvious, please write "'Stan Lee' on cover in marker"  instead of "Name listed on cover in marker"