Disney+'s WandaVision (2020) 6 6

[fantastic_four]

20 hours ago, davidpg said:

Well this little thing will definitely be shooting even further through the roof now...

I bought that off the stands and haven't looked at it since.  Time to go dig it out and see how well I picked 'em and stored 'em back then.  

[skypinkblu]

15 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I suppose likability is a top priority  when considering women in power roles, but Captain Marvel isn’t here to make friends. She’s just here to save the universe.

I am a tiny bit  offended by your statement. I don't know if you are female, but I know I am...and relating to a MOVIE character is important. The portrayal of Captain Marvel in that first movie didn't make me root for her very much, I just didn't feel engaged.  Monica is strong, yet someone I want to succeed.

    Natasha isn't there to make friends either, but the character never left me cold, I wanted to cheer her on.  

I tried watching Captain Marvel a 2nd time because you seemed so enthusiastic about her portrayal, but it was still one of my least favorite Marvel movies. Most of the others I could voluntarily watch over again, this one felt like a homework assignment. I liked the cat.

[Callaway29]

20 hours ago, davidpg said:

Well this little thing will definitely be shooting even further through the roof now...

No kidding...just checked sold listings on eBay. Things are getting gobbled up...

[fantastic_four]

On 2/20/2021 at 7:20 AM, comicginger1789 said:

Are we all in agreeing that the book seen in the basement is the Darkhold? Or is it tied to the Nexus of All Realities?

The Marvel television shows have long been claimed to be part of the MCU.  When they started, Ike Perlmutter was in charge of Marvel Entertainment and the shows, and Kevin Feige was in charge of the MCU and reported to Perlmutter.  Feige had multiple schisms with Perlmutter interfering with MCU film decision-making and funding, and after Disney bought Marvel Feige was able to convince Bob Iger to re-structure Marvel Studios and Feige to no longer report to Perlmutter.  The Marvel shows have contained dozens of references to events and characters from MCU films, but I have yet to see the MCU contain a single reference to the shows--if anyone has seen one please share it.  Presumably the MCU doesn't refer to the Marvel television shows because Feige didn't like Perlmutter's decision-making process, which mostly came from what he called the "Marvel Creative Committee" comprised of multiple legendary Marvel creators including Brian Michael Bendis, Joe Quesada, Dan Buckley, Alan Fine, and others.  That sounds like a great group of creators to me, but they butted heads with multiple directors--most famously Joss Whedon in "Age of Ultron" leading to his exit from Marvel, Jon Favreau on Iron Man 2 leading to his exit, James Gunn who blamed some issues in Guardians of the Galaxy on them, Patty Jenkins who left Thor 2, and Natalie Portman who was pissed about Patty Jenkins leaving due to conflicts with the committee.

That probably seems like a non-sequitur, but here's why I pointed all of that out--the Darkhold appeared in Agents of SHIELD, and it doesn't look anything like the book we just saw in Wandavision.  I didn't see the episodes it was in but I've seen the pictures of it from the show, and they're below.  The first is an illustration of what it supposedly looks like, and the second is a picture of the book itself.  The text on the front reads "Darkhold" in a weird font that I don't know much about, and it's an ambigram--which means that the text reads the same way even if you turn it upside-down.  I don't know why the book looks different from the illustration to the actual book, but if anyone can clarify please do.  

The open question is will Feige maintain lore established in the Marvel television shows.  If I were to guess I would say yes, but if this ends up being the Darkhold then I suppose the answer is no--unless like most things in Wandavision what we're seeing in the basement is illusion, in which case the actual Darkhold may look like the version from Agents of SHIELD.  My guess is the book will end up either never being explained, or if it is that it will be identified as the Necrinomicon, but we'll probably find out soon enough.  

  

[media_junkie]

41 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I suppose likability is a top priority  when considering women in power roles, but Captain Marvel isn’t here to make friends. She’s just here to save the universe.

Dude, just stop.

[jcjames]

1 hour ago, skypinkblu said:

So, as a comic book collector, who has not read all the Marvel newer series, I'm totally lost.  I had to watch the last episode 3 times, because I dozed off in the last few minutes. I will have to watch it again, to see @gadzukes

I'm just wondering how many people who don't have a Ph.D. in Marvel (I've always been more of a DC collector) is doing with this series. My husband gave up. I know all about who Quicksilver is and Franklin Richards and of course Wanda and Vision, even Agatha (although I thought she had white hair) but I think I'm missing a lot...

So thanks for this thread.

Very valid points. I was watching with a non-comic-reader who kind of made a shrug/sideways face after the "It Was Agatha" musical reveal and said "Who's Agatha??" And this was one who has seen most of the MCU movies and is into most of them. That made me realize that anyone who isn't deep into all of the crossover comicbook arcs and minor characters (i.e. who isn't a "Ph.D in Marvel" LOL) misses a LOT of this.

I, like you, have "some" knowledge of who Agatha was, but do not know the full back-story/cross-connecting story-arcs either. I find the show entertaining, but I totally understand the "yawn" many casual MCU-moviegoing folks could have to the events of this show.

[Bosco685]

41 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

So the symbols in Agath'a basement...

The one with the big 'C' underneath it... Mephisto? 

So I'm going through different Marvel references to determine what the big 'CE' and 'C' symbols may link back to. Nothing existing in the MCU just yet.

MCU Magic References

Though I'm thinking like with Doctor Strange when he uses a certain spell differing symbols appear could they both symbolize the same single master?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

50 minutes ago, BuscemasAvengers said:

If they took the approach of some films/tv shows, they'd zip through the credits at warp speed and shave off 6.5 minutes!

Movies don't tend to do that. Typically broadcast television shows do that because they have a set amount of time to work with, and that's where they free up time. You don't have that time constraint with streaming.

[Bosco685]

Could the other villain include Kaluu?

Quote

Kaluu was born over five hundred years ago in Kamar-Taj, a small area in the Himalayan Mountains in the land now known as Tibet. When he was older, Kaluu came to know a boy named the Ancient One, and the two learned the mystic arts together.

 

An evil vampire named Varnae met with Kaluu and imparted to him knowledge from the primeval compendium of black magic known as the Darkhold. With this knowledge, Kaluu set about to make himself ruler of Kamar-Taj. While Yao continued his studies, Kaluu used his sorcery to influence the minds of the people of Kamar-Taj and control them. Eventually, Kaluu and Yao together cast a spell that eliminated disease, poverty, and suffering from Kamar-Taj and granted its people immortality. Shortly thereafter, the people of Kamar-Taj, responding to Kaluu's magical influence on their minds, crowned him as their king. Kaluu desired to bring a lasting peace to Kamar-Taj by making it so powerful that none of the Asian conquerors of the time would dare attack it, so for over a year Kaluu organized the men of Kamar-Taj into an army of conquest.

 

[AJLewandoski]

12 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

The Marvel television shows have long been claimed to be part of the MCU.  When they started, Ike Perlmutter was in charge of Marvel Entertainment and the shows, and Kevin Feige was in charge of the MCU and reported to Perlmutter.  Feige had multiple schisms with Perlmutter interfering with MCU film decision-making and funding, and after Disney bought Marvel Feige was able to convince Bob Iger to re-structure Marvel Studios and Feige to no longer report to Perlmutter.  The Marvel shows have contained dozens of references to events and characters from MCU films, but I have yet to see the MCU contain a single reference to the shows--if anyone has seen one please share it.  Presumably the MCU doesn't refer to the Marvel television shows because Feige didn't like Perlmutter's decision-making process, which mostly came from what he called the "Marvel Creative Committee" comprised of multiple legendary Marvel creators including Brian Michael Bendis, Joe Quesada, Dan Buckley, Alan Fine, and others.  That sounds like a great group of creators to me, but they butted heads with multiple directors--most famously Joss Whedon in "Age of Ultron" leading to his exit from Marvel, Jon Favreau on Iron Man 2 leading to his exit, James Gunn who blamed some issues in Guardians of the Galaxy on them, Patty Jenkins who left Thor 2, and Natalie Portman who was pissed about Patty Jenkins leaving due to conflicts with the committee.

That probably seems like a non-sequitur, but here's why I pointed all of that out--the Darkhold appeared in Agents of SHIELD, and it doesn't look anything like the book we just saw in Wandavision.  I didn't see the episodes it was in but I've seen the pictures of it from the show, and they're below.  The first is an illustration of what it supposedly looks like, and the second is a picture of the book itself.  The text on the front reads "Darkhold" in a weird font that I don't know much about, and it's an ambigram--which means that the text reads the same way even if you turn it upside-down.  I don't know why the book looks different from the illustration to the actual book, but if anyone can clarify please do.  

The open question is will Feige maintain lore established in the Marvel television shows.  If I were to guess I would say yes, but if this ends up being the Darkhold then I suppose the answer is no--unless like most things in Wandavision what we're seeing in the basement is illusion, in which case the actual Darkhold may look like the version from Agents of SHIELD.  My guess is the book will end up either never being explained, or if it is that it will be identified as the Necrinomicon, but we'll probably find out soon enough.  

  

The one instance of the movies referencing the shows is Edwin Jarvis from Agent Carter showing up in Endgame to pick up Howard Stark in the 70s scene. I'm pretty sure that's basically the only one, BUT it does at the very least tie them together a little. The Darkhold episodes of Agents of Shield are the absolute best and most praised of the entire series. Between Ghost Rider and The Framework they really outdid themselves and there are some connections that could be made for Wandavision and Doctor Strange 2 

The top picture is a portal made by Ghost Rider in Agents of SHIELD to travel dimensions the bottom is from Doctor Strange they're absolutely identical for a reason. 

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, skypinkblu said:

I am a tiny bit  offended by your statement. I don't know if you are female, but I know I am...and relating to a MOVIE character is important. The portrayal of Captain Marvel in that first movie didn't make me root for her very much, I just didn't feel engaged.  Monica is strong, yet someone I want to succeed.

    Natasha isn't there to make friends either, but the character never left me cold, I wanted to cheer her on.  

I tried watching Captain Marvel a 2nd time because you seemed so enthusiastic about her portrayal, but it was still one of my least favorite Marvel movies. Most of the others I could voluntarily watch over again, this one felt like a homework assignment. I liked the cat.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend but I suppose I tend to get a little combative when it comes to my now favorite superhero, Captain Marvel. I'm sorry you didn't relate to Carol Danvers in her first movie, but I've had conversations with ladies in person and online who very much related to Ms. Danvers and I've read about famous ladies who were equally inspired by her. Obviously there's something there.

I know, Captain Marvel the movie wasn't a super dramatic epic about Carol Danvers' struggles and I don't think it was meant to be. Given its placement between the very dark Infinity War and the upcoming Endgame, it seemed to me to be more of a lighter intro to a new MCU character and a fun adventurous diversion from the hero tragedies we all just witnessed. But again, women I talked to still saw it as a feminist movie, and not in the "toxic" sense. By simply putting a female in the star role and also letting her make mistakes and tell the jokes, just like Tony Stark or Stephen Strange, Marvel Studios made a huge step for women super-heroes at the movies.

As to likability, I could say the same about Steve Rogers and Stephen Strange in their first movies. Although Rogers had that great hero moment in boot camp with the grenade, for the rest of the movie he was a bit of a sap IMO. And in Avengers he was a simplistic jerk compared to ultra cool Stark. I didn't really like Rogers until Winter Soldier. I thought Strange also was a jerk in his first movie and didn't really feel moved by him. It wasn't until Infinity War that I finally liked Dr Strange. It's a long game for these heroes in the Marvel Universe. Maybe we can just give them all a chance if they don't impress us the first time around.

Edited February 21, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Sorry, I don't mean to offend but I suppose I tend to get a little combative when it comes to my now favorite superhero, Captain Marvel. I'm sorry you didn't relate to Carol Danvers in her first movie, but I've had conversations with ladies in person and online who very much related to Ms. Danvers and I've read about famous ladies who were equally inspired by her. Obviously there's something there.

I know, Captain Marvel the movie wasn't a super dramatic epic about Carol Danvers' struggles and I don't think it was meant to be. Given its placement between the very dark Infinity War and the upcoming Endgame, it seemed to me to be more of a lighter intro to a new MCU character and a fun adventurous diversion from the hero tragedies we all just witnessed. But again, women I talked to still saw it as a feminist movie, and not in the "toxic" sense. By simply putting a female in the star role and also letting her make mistakes and tell the jokes, just like Tony Stark or Stephen Strange, Marvel Studios made a huge step for women super-heroes at the movies.

As to likability, I could say the same about Steve Rogers and Stephen Strange in their first movies. Although Rogers had that great hero movie in boot camp with the grenade, for the rest of the movie he was a bit of a sap IMO. And in Avengers he was a simplistic jerk compared to ultra cool Stark. I didn't really like Rogers until Winter Soldier. I thought Strange also was a jerk in his first movie and didn't really feel moved by him. It wasn't until Infinity War that I finally liked Dr Strange. It's a long game for these heroes in the Marvel Universe. Maybe we can just give them all a chance if they don't impress us the first time around.

You truly go above and beyond for one character. All someone has to say is 'I didn't like Captain Marvel because..' and you come prancing out.

[WolverineX]

1 hour ago, skypinkblu said:

I am a tiny bit  offended by your statement. I don't know if you are female, but I know I am...and relating to a MOVIE character is important. The portrayal of Captain Marvel in that first movie didn't make me root for her very much, I just didn't feel engaged.  Monica is strong, yet someone I want to succeed.

    Natasha isn't there to make friends either, but the character never left me cold, I wanted to cheer her on.  

I tried watching Captain Marvel a 2nd time because you seemed so enthusiastic about her portrayal, but it was still one of my least favorite Marvel movies. Most of the others I could voluntarily watch over again, this one felt like a homework assignment. I liked the cat.

Agreed with you.  I found CM actress unlikeable and made it hard for me to finish the movie.   Wet blanket personality.    I do like  Black Widow and Monica much more... To each their own

[skypinkblu]

7 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Sorry, I don't mean to offend but I suppose I tend to get a little combative when it comes to my now favorite superhero, Captain Marvel. I'm sorry you didn't relate to Carol Danvers in her first movie, but I've had conversations with ladies in person and online who very much related to Ms. Danvers and I've read about famous ladies who were equally inspired by her. Obviously there's something there.

I know, Captain Marvel the movie wasn't a super dramatic epic about Carol Danvers' struggles and I don't think it was meant to be. Given its placement between the very dark Infinity War and the upcoming Endgame, it seemed to me to be more of a lighter intro to a new MCU character and a fun adventurous diversion from the hero tragedies we all just witnessed. But again, women I talked to still saw it as a feminist movie, and not in the "toxic" sense. By simply putting a female in the star role and also letting her make mistakes and tell the jokes, just like Tony Stark or Stephen Strange, Marvel Studios made a huge step for women super-heroes at the movies.

As to likability, I could say the same about Steve Rogers and Stephen Strange in their first movies. Although Rogers had that great hero movie in boot camp with the grenade, for the rest of the movie he was a bit of a sap IMO. And in Avengers he was a simplistic jerk compared to ultra cool Stark. I didn't really like Rogers until Winter Soldier. I thought Strange also was a jerk in his first movie and didn't really feel moved by him. It wasn't until Infinity War that I finally liked Dr Strange. It's a long game for these heroes in the Marvel Universe. Maybe we can just give them all a chance if they don't impress us the first time around.

 

Lots of times I just bite my tongue, but sometimes when a male explains feminist challenges, to me, sometimes I want to say, you read about it, I lived it. 

I've never been a feminist, I've walked out of more than a few "feminist" meetings where men were being bashed. I simply believe in equality. That's how I have survived in non traditional jobs, hobbies etc. and how I've been able to enjoy them.  I believe that men can be just as capable as women;)

I loved the first Dr. Strange, and the Cap movie, thank G-d, we are all different, otherwise we'd all be wearing the same outfits and that would be both confusing and boring;) . 

[@therealsilvermane]

10 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

 

Lots of times I just bite my tongue, but sometimes when a male explains feminist challenges, to me, sometimes I want to say, you read about it, I lived it. 

I've never been a feminist, I've walked out of more than a few "feminist" meetings where men were being bashed. I simply believe in equality. That's how I have survived in non traditional jobs, hobbies etc. and how I've been able to enjoy them.  I believe that men can be just as capable as women;)

I loved the first Dr. Strange, and the Cap movie, thank G-d, we are all different, otherwise we'd all be wearing the same outfits and that would be both confusing and boring;) . 

I think we can all relate to being told we're not good enough or that we do too much of this or that and we shouldn't be ourselves. Although it wasn't pressed a great deal in the movie, that's what the Kree were doing to Carol. Don't laugh, don't be this, these are your enemies. I think we can all relate to authority figures in our lives telling us how to live our lives. I found that relatable.

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, skypinkblu said:

Natasha isn't there to make friends either, but the character never left me cold, I wanted to cheer her on.

I'd argue that Natasha actually was there to make "friends", get close, and then get information.

To me, she was always just a supporting character who played the wet blanket nanny for the guys and always picked up after them. There was never a need to know any more about her. It wasn't until Endgame that we finally got to see her be a more fleshed out character and see her inner world, which is why she deserves her own movie now.

[bpc3qh]

"Wet blanket"? Danvers was sarcastic and funny and generally delightful. Every time I watch the movie I like Larson's performance more and more.

[skypinkblu]

4 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I think we can all relate to being told we're not good enough or that we do too much of this or that and we shouldn't be ourselves. Although it wasn't pressed a great deal in the movie, that's what the Kree were doing to Carol. Don't laugh, don't be this, these are your enemies. I think we can all relate to authority figures in our lives telling us how to live our lives. I found that relatable.

Not what I meant. You are obviously caring about women, but just off the top of my head, have you ever been told that you can't play baseball because you are a girl? That girls can't go to the "rifle range" (it was just bb guns) at day camp? that if you want to switch your major to art instead of law you are just in school to find a husband? Girls who are not considered unattractive  can't possibly beat everyone else on a standardized test? That there are no female grooms at the race track? Etc, etc? The latest (because there have been changes over the years and many less "you can't because" incidents) was that "women don't collect comics" and that one was on here.

So I played baseball, won the riflery medal at camp, got an A in my Constitutional law class and took art anyway, was the first female groom at the local harness track (while I was in grad school) did pretty well on standardized tests, and I have an acceptable (to most;) comic book collection;) 

Like I said, I've lived it...but I still think movies should be entertaining...and now that I've said more about my past here than I have to most people ..

 I didn't want to go to law school because I actually hate arguing, so I will leave it at that...

 

[fastballspecial]

On 2/20/2021 at 6:20 AM, comicginger1789 said:

Are we all in agreeing that the book seen in the basement is the Darkhold? Or is it tied to the Nexus of All Realities?

If it’s for sure the Darkhold, that thing has definitely been tied to a lot of characters that have come up like Chthon and Modred. One who seems to also have a large connection is Morgan La Fay but no one really seems to care about her in any of their theories....

 

I am going with Darkhold for now it fits better. 

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, AJLewandoski said:

The one instance of the movies referencing the shows is Edwin Jarvis from Agent Carter showing up in Endgame to pick up Howard Stark in the 70s scene. I'm pretty sure that's basically the only one, BUT it does at the very least tie them together a little.

Interesting, I had no idea--I just thought that was the first time we saw the actual Jarvis Tony named his AI after.  That suggests that either the book in the basement isn't the Darkhold, there's no book at all and it's all illusion, or there is a book there but its actual appearance is being masked by illusion.