Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS 1 1

[Bird]

9 minutes ago, drotto said:

Honestly, Captain Marvel felt forced into this movie.  Not that she did not have 2 or 3 big moments, but the timing with her and her very limited interactions with basically all the other characters, did feel like an afterthought.  IMO, it lends credence to the idea that the --script was already basically done when Disney decided that she must play a role in Endgame resulting in the minimal rewrites required to get her in.

You could just as easily say that about Black Panther, Winter Soldier, Falcon, War Machine, etc. Even Dr Strange (my comics favorite). Minimal importance overall but they are there to keep the MCU rollin' along.

[comix4fun]

3 minutes ago, TupennyConan said:

...and touch upon key moments in their solo-films to emphasize those characters [and weave the films into one].

The first 2/3 of the film may be described as situational -- as in sit-com -- or character driven -- as in a stage play [Eugene O'Neil, to be middlebrow]. 

The beat 'em up at the end works to satisfy the blockbuster -- early summer tent pole -- needs for over-the-top spectacle and 'splosions, CGI. IMO, the 'bad part.'     

The excellent logic on display by the critics here and elsewhere panning the characters' poor time travel choices, castigating plot gaps, and puzzling over the missing Super[wo]man, miss this point of loving the [original 6] characters as they be the characters we've learned them to be from IM1 to now. 

The better criticism is: why the poor casting of Hawkeye and Widow?  

That's how I saw it as well, those time travel choices were brilliant in how they gave us chances to not only see and walk around in the world of those earlier films, but gave the characters a chance to relive pieces of their past, see those that factored prominently in their past, provide a "then-to-now" retrospective on how far they've come in the process, and for us as fans to take one last lap around the collected universe of these 22 films. 

[drotto]

5 minutes ago, Bird said:

You could just as easily say that about Black Panther, Winter Soldier, Falcon, War Machine, etc. Even Dr Strange (my comics favorite). Minimal importance overall but they are there to keep the MCU rollin' along.

I do not disagree, but feel it was more obvious with Captain Marvel because she was not in Infinity War.  I disagree with Black Panther since he was very important in Infinity war, and also feel that War Machine was fairly prominent in Endgame. From a story telling standpoint, it does not make sense that she was brought in so last minute, especially after many world ending threats in previous films.  Yes, Marvel was giving many sometimes forced nods in this film to characters needed to carry the MCU forward.

[TupennyConan]

6 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

That's how I saw it as well, those time travel choices were brilliant in how they gave us chances to not only see and walk around in the world of those earlier films, but gave the characters a chance to relive pieces of their past, see those that factored prominently in their past, provide a "then-to-now" retrospective on how far they've come in the process, and for us as fans to take one last lap around the collected universe of these 22 films. 

Correct. If you acknowledge, rightly, that that was the story mandate, then you're more likely to find much less fault with the film. 

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, drotto said:

I do not disagree, but feel it was more obvious with Captain Marvel because she was not in Infinity War.  I disagree with Black Panther since he was very important in Infinity war, and also feel that War Machine was fairly prominent in Endgame. From a story telling standpoint, it does not make sense that she was brought in so last minute, especially after many world ending threats in previous films.  Yes, Marvel was giving many sometimes forced nods in this film to characters needed to carry the MCU forward.

Carol Danvers was not a forced feed into Endgame. At the end of Infinity War, Nick Fury calls up his ace in the pocket because he knows the current Avengers team lost as he sees human beings disintegrate in front of him. He knows the team needed extra cosmic power to face whatever it was that beat them. And she did her job. She rescued Tony and Nebula when probably nobody else could. She gave them added muscle on the first Thanos meeting. And in the grand finale battle, she takes out Sanctuary 2 and stops Thanos from snapping his fingers again when he first gets the Gauntlet.

Comic book legacy wise, perhaps the Marvel hero most connected to Thanos besides Adam Warlock and Iron Man, is probably Captain Marvel. Yes, Carol Danvers is not Mar-Vell, but for the purposes of the MCU, she represents Captain Marvel, so it's especially fitting that Marvel Studios saved the Avengers intro of  "Captain Marvel" for the final fight against Thanos. 

She was actually supposed to make her Avengers debut in Age of Ultron, but that was thankfully scrubbed. It's important that the most cosmic Avenger makes her team debut in the final part of the Infinity Saga.

Edited May 5, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, TupennyConan said:

The excellent logic on display by the critics here and elsewhere panning the characters' poor time travel choices, castigating plot gaps, and puzzling over the missing Super[wo]man, miss this point of loving the [original 6] characters as they be the characters we've learned them to be from IM1 to now. 

The better criticism is: why the poor casting of Hawkeye and Widow?  

'The excellent logic'? I sense sarcasm there.  

Although 'they be' the characters we've learned them to be from IM1 onwards (I get your point), ignoring all other aspects of the film to celebrate just those original characters could ignore key parts of the overall story.

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

That's how I saw it as well, those time travel choices were brilliant in how they gave us chances to not only see and walk around in the world of those earlier films, but gave the characters a chance to relive pieces of their past, see those that factored prominently in their past, provide a "then-to-now" retrospective on how far they've come in the process, and for us as fans to take one last lap around the collected universe of these 22 films. 

Although I enjoyed parts of the film, along with many of the contributions over the years leading to this wild 22-film ride, there are scenes even when visiting memorable moments leading to much of the discussion in this thread. And there really is nothing wrong with that. It just means people really dug into this extensive story, and were left with questions. Ignoring the sexists and feminism points to prove someone takes a character less serious than others.

Now where the time travel scenario could have been over-explained leading to move confusion, what is interesting is from test screening results the Russo Brothers decided to eliminate any former movie influence on the topic.

Russo Brothers Break Down the MCU's Rules For Time Travel

Quote

Joe Russo noted that Back to the Future informed the public's views of time travel and, although the filmmakers are fans, they didn't want the MCU to be beholden to that 1985 film. That especially became apparent when three separate test screenings revealed audiences were confused by Endgame's use of time travel in comparison to Back to the Future. That resulted in the addition during reshoots of multiple jokes and explanations, including a scene in which Ant-Man and War Machine list popular time-travel films, which are summarily dismissed by Bruce Banner as he broke down the rules.

 

Joe Russo pointed to two explanations of time travel in the MCU, one from Banner and the other from the Ancient One. Every action the heroes commit while in the past would result in the formation of a divergent timeline, or alternate reality, as a sort of butterfly effect. With that in mind, the Ancient One warns Banner to return the Infinity Stones to their proper places in the main timeline to ensure the trillions of lives in each of the divergent realities would be spared from the Avengers' tampering and continue to exist.

Where this leaves you questioning what may have occurred is scenes like when Nebula knocked out Peter Quill. So if he is laid out unconscious, who could have come upon him with not the best intentions? I just remember this because Guardians 1 is in my Top 10 MCU films list.

Does that make for an alternate timeline? Does Cap come back and just place the Power Stone back in his hand so he wakes up with it? Would it be before Korath shows up? It leaves you wondering.

Those questions don't then lead to the assumption this is a bad movie. It isn't. But it does leave for such questions.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bosco685

[comix4fun]

The first moment a regular human character, even with powers, held an infinity stone in their hand without feeling its effects, it made sense to drop some of the expectations for what "should" happen thematically. 

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

The first moment a regular human character, even with powers, held an infinity stone in their hand without feeling its effects, it made sense to drop some of the expectations for what "should" happen thematically. 

I hear you.

But now it involves time travel. And tampering with events shown in previous films. That's going to bring unique questions. Though with Doctor Strange, it hinted to time alteration.

[Nino_013]

10 hours ago, comix4fun said:

The first moment a regular human character, even with powers, held an infinity stone in their hand without feeling its effects, it made sense to drop some of the expectations for what "should" happen thematically. 

I was under the impression that only the Power Stone cant be held without feeling its effect.

[Bosco685]

37 minutes ago, Nino_013 said:

I was under the impression that only the Power Stone cant be held without feeling its effect.

It's a fair question, as with Jane Foster carrying the Reality Stone inside her it took time for it to impact her health. You can't get closer than that with an Infinity Stone.

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bosco685

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:31 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

It's easy actually. The MCU, AS A WHOLE, is really the only extended super-hero movie universe that matters in the public consciousness. Wonder Woman doesn't threaten the traditional hierarchy of the MCU which have Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor as fan favorites. Black Panther and Captain Marvel do threaten that universe for some people.

As a movie, Wonder Woman is also easier for non-feminist type folks to digest. In Wonder Woman, Steve Trevor still gets to mansplain to her, she still gets to be a love interest for Steve Trevor (and what's the purpose of a woman if she can't be a love interest?), she plays the proper straight man not only to Trevor but the other males in the movie who get to be messy, and Diana, above all, is still a princess. Carol Danvers is nobody's straight man, nobody's love interest, and certainly no princess.

None of this makes any sense...

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'm gonna be watching this again on Friday and Saturday. Maybe Sunday as well.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 5/4/2019 at 1:10 AM, TwoPiece said:

Captain Marvel isn't stronger than Thor, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, or even the simple human Tony Stark (who saved the universe). Not even close to being "strongest Avenger". She isn't even an Avenger.

Uh, wait... besides the MCU canonical fact that "Avenger" was Capt. Carol Danvers' call sign in the Air Force, Carol Danvers was totally an Avenger in Endgame. After the Five Years Later time jump... we see that Natasha has assumed leadership of the Avengers and at HQ, we see the ragtag Avengers reporting the status of the universe to her, including Rocket, Nebula, James Rhodes, Okoye, and yes, Carol Danvers. And yes, they were officially Avengers. It was obvious Steve Rogers wasn't officially an Avenger (hadn't been since Civil War when he gave up the Shield), Barton was AWOL, Thor was "ruling" New Asgard, Bruce Banner was trying to figure out Hulk, and everybody else was "disappeared." So yeah, after five years, your current Avengers roster was Natasha as team leader, Rhodes, Rocket, Nebula, Okoye, and Carol Danvers. Ragtag and scattered, but still Avengers. 

In the MCU, if you fight with the Avengers, you essentially become a de facto Avenger. That's why Captain America, with the army of heroes behind him at the big finale fight, says "Avengers Assemble." 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Uh, wait... besides the MCU canonical fact that "Avenger" was Capt. Carol Danvers' call sign in the Air Force, Carol Danvers was totally an Avenger in Endgame. After the Five Years Later time jump... we see that Natasha has assumed leadership of the Avengers and at HQ, we see the ragtag Avengers reporting the status of the universe to her, including Rocket, Nebula, James Rhodes, Okoye, and yes, Carol Danvers. And yes, they were officially Avengers. It was obvious Steve Rogers wasn't officially an Avenger (hadn't been since Civil War when he gave up the Shield), Barton was AWOL, Thor was "ruling" New Asgard, Bruce Banner was trying to figure out Hulk, and everybody else was "disappeared." So yeah, after five years, your current Avengers roster was Natasha as team leader, Rhodes, Rocket, Nebula, Okoye, and Carol Danvers. Ragtag and scattered, but still Avengers. 

In the MCU, if you fight with the Avengers, you essentially become a de facto Avenger. That's why Captain America, with the army of heroes behind him at the big finale fight, says "Avengers Assemble." 

Captain Marvel is not an Avenger. She didn't join the Avengers in their quests for a reason. She simply isn't an Avenger. Rocket was also at the Avengers HQ meetings and he is not an Avenger.

Circular "logic" doesn't change the fact that she isn't an Avenger.

[@therealsilvermane]

8 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Captain Marvel is not an Avenger. She didn't join the Avengers in their quests for a reason. She simply isn't an Avenger. Rocket was also at the Avengers HQ meetings and he is not an Avenger.

Circular "logic" doesn't change the fact that she isn't an Avenger.

Then why the heck were they all reporting to and taking orders from Natasha!? Reason: they were Avengers.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, @therealsilvermane said:

Then why the heck were they all reporting to and taking orders from Natasha!? Reason: they were Avengers.

LMK when she's ever referred to as an Avenger.

Hint: She isn't. Neither is Rocket or Nebula. Reason: They aren't Avengers.

[@therealsilvermane]

17 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

LMK when she's ever referred to as an Avenger.

Hint: She isn't. Neither is Rocket or Nebula. Reason: They aren't Avengers.

Natasha is never referred to as Black Widow by anybody in these movies, either, but that doesn't mean she isn't.

If Carol Danvers, Rhodes, and co. were on mission, and reporting to Natasha (the only remaining active original MCU Avenger recognized legally by the World Council), then they were Avengers. There were no other active duty heroes left on Earth.

And btw, Valkyrie, by joining in the big fight at the end, became an Avenger, too.

But don't worry. For the next movie, after they move Avengers HQ to outer space, they'll sort it all out and pare down the team to a manageable roster and make Carol the leader.

Edited May 6, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Natasha is never referred to as Black Widow by anybody in these movies, either, but that doesn't mean she isn't.

If Carol Danvers, Rhodes, and co. were on mission, and reporting to Natasha (the only remaining active original MCU Avenger recognized legally by the World Council), then they were Avengers. There were no other active duty heroes left on Earth.

And btw, Valkyrie, by joining in the big fight at the end, became an Avenger, too.

But don't worry, for the next movie, after they move Avengers HQ to outer space, they'll sort it all out and pare down the team to a manageable roster and make Carol the leader.

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel, despite not being referred to that. Ever.

She isn't an Avenger, though.

[@therealsilvermane]

8 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel, despite not being referred to that. Ever.

She isn't an Avenger, though.

For Disney's marketing and legal purposes, Carol is Captain Marvel. However, in the story so far, Carol Danvers isn't officially Captain Marvel yet. That name still belongs to Mar Vell. I'm assuming Nick Fury will call her that in the sequel and make it official.

And Carol is totally an Avenger.

Edited May 6, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

9 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Carol Danvers...isn't an Avenger, though.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this. I guess because it's better than working