First Black Suit!
1 1

First Black Suit!!  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. What is (In your opinion) the first appearance of Spider-Man's Black/ alien suit?

    • Amazing Spider-Man #252
      20
    • Marvel Team-Up #141
      1
    • Spectacular Spider-Man #90
      1
    • Marvel Superheroes Secret Wars #8
      3
    • Marvel Age #12
      1
    • The weird preview stuff.
      0
    • ROM: Spaceknight #1
      2


50 posts in this topic

5,183 posts

I'll vote after you explain how opinions are relevant to the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508 posts
5 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

I'll vote after you explain how opinions are relevant to the question.

Pretty straightforward- If someone asks what the first Black Suit, what do you say?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,183 posts
9 minutes ago, obiedagod said:

Pretty straightforward- If someone asks what the first Black Suit, what do you say?

I don't offer them an irrelevant opinion, just the simple fact that ASM 252 is the first appearance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508 posts
3 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

I don't offer them an irrelevant opinion, just the simple fact that ASM 252 is the first appearance.

Dude- It's just a question. I wondered what people think of as the first appearance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55,967 posts
4 hours ago, obiedagod said:

Dude- It's just a question. I wondered what people think of as the first appearance. 

It's a bit like asking what people think of as the answer to 2 + 2.

It's always 4, despite the fact that there are people who want to think it's 3, or 5, or the cube root of pi. 

It would also be like asking what people think is the first appearance of Superman: any answer besides Action #1 is incorrect, opinion or not. 

Opinions can be...and frequently are...wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508 posts
24 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's a bit like asking what people think of as the answer to 2 + 2.

It's always 4, despite the fact that there are people who want to think it's 3, or 5, or the cube root of pi. 

It would also be like asking what people think is the first appearance of Superman: any answer besides Action #1 is incorrect, opinion or not. 

Opinions can be...and frequently are...wrong.

"First appearance" can mean different things to different people. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55,967 posts
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, obiedagod said:

"First appearance" can mean different things to different people. 

Of course...but that doesn't make those different meanings the correct one.

So what IS the correct one?

We have to look at precedent. And precedent dictates that, throughout the history of organized fandom, with some very, VERY rare exceptions (More Fun #51, for example), first appearances have always been considered in the context of a story

Comics is a storytelling artform: sequential (meaning, in a specific order) art.

Prior to very recently, nobody ever considered (and documentation proves this) "previews" and the like to be "first appearances." Marvel Age #97, for example, was never called the "first appearance of Darkhawk" by anyone who collected in 1991, even while Darkhawk #1 was a smokin' hot $20 back issue. 

Nobody ever considered Action Comics #12 to be the first appearance of Batman, or More Fun #31 to be the first appearance of Superman, or Batman #130 to be the first appearance of the Justice League of America.

There's nothing wrong with liking those previews, and collecting them, and paying a premium for them. But they are not, and never will be, "first appearances", because that's not what the creators thought of them as, it's not what the publishers thought of them as, it's not what the collecting public of the day (if it existed) thought of them as. And if someone wants to come along and attempt to redefine it later, when that's not what the original creators and consumers of these books considered them, the burden would be on them to have a pretty compelling justification for doing so, and not just "because we say so!"

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508 posts
17 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Of course...but that doesn't make those different meanings the correct one.

So what IS the correct one?

We have to look at precedent. And precedent dictates that, throughout the history of organized fandom, with some very, VERY rare exceptions (More Fun #51, for example), first appearances have always been considered in the context of a story

Comics is a storytelling artform: sequential (meaning, in a specific order) art.

Prior to very recently, nobody ever considered (and documentation proves this) "previews" and the like to be "first appearances." Marvel Age #97, for example, was never called the "first appearance of Darkhawk" by anyone who collected in 1991, even while Darkhawk #1 was a smokin' hot $20 back issue. 

Nobody ever considered Action Comics #12 to be the first appearance of Batman, or More Fun #31 to be the first appearance of Superman, or Batman #130 to be the first appearance of the Justice League of America.

There's nothing wrong with liking those previews, and collecting them, and paying a premium for them. But they are not, and never will be, "first appearances", because that's not what the creators thought of them as, it's not what the publishers thought of them as, it's not what the collecting public of the day (if it existed) thought of them as. And if someone wants to come along and attempt to redefine it later, when that's not what the original creators and consumers of these books considered them, the burden would be on them to have a pretty compelling justification for doing so, and not just "because we say so!"

And all of that- even if it is correct (It is)- is still your opinion.

That's why I created this poll, to find out peoples opinions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55,967 posts
3 minutes ago, obiedagod said:

And all of that- even if it is correct (It is)- is still your opinion.

That's why I created this poll, to find out peoples opinions.

2+2 = 5. Or 3. Or 437. All just opinion.

Right...?

If everything comes down to opinion, then there are no facts, and reality doesn't exist. If facts don't matter with meaningless things, they'll eventually come to not matter for important things, like individual rights.

Creating this poll...giving equal weight to correct AND incorrect answers, by making them all "chooseable" options...reinforces that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
857 posts
Posted (edited)

Based on date it hit the newstands/comic shop ASM #252 is the 1st appearance, January 31st 1984.  Followed by Marvel Team-Up and Spectacular Spider-man, both on Feb 14th, 1984.  Secret Wars #8 is the origin story but didn't hit newstands/comic shops until August 28th, 1984.

Amazing Spider-Man #252 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=48004

Marvel Team-up #141 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=45868

Spectacular Spider-Man #90 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=46937

Secret Wars #8 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=48483

I think previews should not be considered 1st appearances unless they include a full story along with it.  Marvel Age was a Black and Red suit Spider-Man prototype that was not used moving forward.

Edited by Crops068
fixed a spelling error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
271 posts
On 5/27/2019 at 8:59 PM, obiedagod said:

And all of that- even if it is correct (It is)- is still your opinion.

That's why I created this poll, to find out peoples opinions.

Peoples opinions are irrelevant. There is an objective answer to the question, and it is ASM252. Any other answer is simply wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
857 posts
12 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

I thought it was Secret Wars #8. I guess I was wrong. lol

I'm definitely no Spidey expert, though.

For a long time I thought it was too, even when I bought ASM 252 it was not marketed as 1st black suit.  But then the shop I bought it from was a card shop that had not dealt in comics in about a decade. (shrug)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,537 posts
On 5/27/2019 at 9:23 PM, Crops068 said:

Based on date it hit the newstands/comic shop ASM #252 is the 1st appearance, January 31st 1984.  Followed by Marvel Team-Up and Spectacular Spider-man, both on Feb 14th, 1984.  Secret Wars #8 is the origin story but didn't hit newstands/comic shops until August 28th, 1984.

Amazing Spider-Man #252 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=48004

Marvel Team-up #141 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=45868

Spectacular Spider-Man #90 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=46937

Secret Wars #8 - http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=48483

I think previews should not be considered 1st appearances unless they include a full story along with it.  Marvel Age was a Black and Red suit Spider-Man prototype that was not used moving forward.

if Marvel Team-Up 141 came out 15 days later how come CGC notes it as tied for First appearance is it because its less than a month difference in timing for it to hit the newsstands/comic shops?

This is not directed at you Crops068 I just quoted it as you had the info about dates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
857 posts
47 minutes ago, Krishosein said:

if Marvel Team-Up 141 came out 15 days later how come CGC notes it as tied for First appearance is it because its less than a month difference in timing for it to hit the newsstands/comic shops?

This is not directed at you Crops068 I just quoted it as you had the info about dates. 

This might be due to CGC using only the Month/Year of the book, which all three ASM 252, MTU 141 and PPSSM 90 are cover dated from May 1984. (shrug)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55,967 posts
2 hours ago, Crops068 said:
3 hours ago, Krishosein said:

if Marvel Team-Up 141 came out 15 days later how come CGC notes it as tied for First appearance is it because its less than a month difference in timing for it to hit the newsstands/comic shops?

This is not directed at you Crops068 I just quoted it as you had the info about dates. 

This might be due to CGC using only the Month/Year of the book, which all three ASM 252, MTU 141 and PPSSM 90 are cover dated from May 1984.

That is correct.

And while there's no conflict between that designation and ASM #252 being understood as the first appearance to knowledgeable, experienced collectors, it seems to be another example of confusion created by not-quite-accurate CGC labels.

Remember, people: CGC label notes are not meant to be taken as definitive. They are a courtesy to submitters, and nothing more. They ought not be treated as reference material.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,183 posts
4 hours ago, Krishosein said:

if Marvel Team-Up 141 came out 15 days later how come CGC notes it as tied for First appearance is it because its less than a month difference in timing for it to hit the newsstands/comic shops?

Because somebody messed up. Spectacular Spider-Man 90 is correctly noted as "1st black costume in title" on the label. ASM 252 has "Ties with Marvel Team-Up #141 for 1st appearance of the black costume." which is just wrong.

Interestingly, old 252 labels just have "First appearance of the black costume." in the notes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508 posts
1 hour ago, Readcomix said:

I thought OP bought a tux :tonofbricks:

What

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
1 1