Classic Covers Question 1 1

[bronze johnny]

28 minutes ago, The-Collector said:

Someone who shares my opinion about Cap 74. I don't ged it, it isn't rare and the art is so so. 

Cap 74 is one of those "personal favorites of mine" books. Some covers will have a more significant impact on the person seeing it than it would on others. Does this book have a cover that distinguishes itself from other horror-like covers published during the Atomic Age (this isn't a Golden Age book) era? Is it in the same league as the greatest horror covers of the Atomic Age era? Tomb of Terror 15? Does it stand out like Thing 15? 7? Weird Mysteries 4? 5? Horrific 3? Weird Chills 2? Crime Suspenstories 22? 20? 17? Shock Suspenstories 6? Black Cat Mystery 50? 45? Worlds of Fear 10? Weird Tales of the Future 7? Mister Mystery 12? Could anyone say that these books do not have classic covers?

One way to get an idea whether a cover deserves the adjective "classic" is to place it next to the above mentioned books and see how it looks?

[The-Collector]

12 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Cap 74 is one of those "personal favorites of mine" books. Some covers will have a more significant impact on the person seeing it than it would on others. Does this book have a cover that distinguishes itself from other horror-like covers published during the Atomic Age (this isn't a Golden Age book) era? Is it in the same league as the greatest horror covers of the Atomic Age era? Tomb of Terror 15? Does it stand out like Thing 15? 7? Weird Mysteries 4? 5? Horrific 3? Weird Chills 2? Crime Suspenstories 22? 20? 17? Shock Suspenstories 6? Black Cat Mystery 50? 45? Worlds of Fear 10? Weird Tales of the Future 7? Mister Mystery 12? Could anyone say that these books do not have classic covers?

One way to get an idea whether a cover deserves the adjective "classic" is to place it next to the above mentioned books and see how it looks?

Well put. I think you'll get different answers depending on who you ask; my answer would be no. Though I think it is clear I'm in the minority given 3.0s are nearing $10k. 

[bronze johnny]

19 minutes ago, The-Collector said:

Well put. I think you'll get different answers depending on who you ask; my answer would be no. Though I think it is clear I'm in the minority given 3.0s are nearing $10k. 

I'd attribute the value to 2 primary reasons:

1) It's a unique Captain America book and there are collectors out there with deep pockets who want all things Cap.

2) Cap 74 is a historic - transition book for Timely-Atlas-Marvel. We see the publisher transitioning from the failing superhero genre to horror/supernatural. ACG started the horror genre when it published Adventures into the Unknown 1 the prior year and other publishers followed suit. Cap 74 owes much more to capturing a very accurate moment in time that gives all of us clear insight into what's happenning during the post-war era that gave rise to the Atomic Age and the new fears, tensions, and anxieties coinciding with the early Cold War. Superheroes had done their job helping America and its allies win the Good War but they no longer gave America the assistance necessary to deal with the known unknowns. Cap tried and failed. The history is so significant in defining books like Cap 74 and that's what makes it a "classic book" not to mention a cool cover that I like.  

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by bronze johnny

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

29 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

I'd attribute the value to 2 primary reasons:

1) It's a unique Captain America book and there are collectors out there with deep pockets who want all things Cap.

2) Cap 74 is a historic - transition book for Timely-Atlas-Marvel. We see the publisher transitioning from the failing superhero genre to horror/supernatural. ACG started the horror genre when it published Adventures into the Unknown 1 the prior year and other publishers followed suit. Cap 74 owes much more to capturing a very accurate moment in time that gives all of us clear insight into what's happenning during the post-war era that gave rise to the Atomic Age and the new fears, tensions, and anxieties coinciding with the early Cold War. Superheroes had done their job helping America and its allies win the Good War but they no longer gave America the assistance necessary to deal with the known unknowns. Cap tried and failed. The history is so significant in defining books like Cap 74 and that's what makes it a "classic book" not to mention a cool cover that I like.  

 

Well put. But still. $10k for a 3.0? Are people really doing that? Or are sellers just trying to get that? No way this is above a Cap 46

[bronze johnny]

35 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Well put. But still. $10k for a 3.0? Are people really doing that? Or are sellers just trying to get that? No way this is above a Cap 46

Not going to speculate beyond providing an anecdote. A friend reached out to me and wants to invest in comic books asking me for advice. Saw the Marvel movies and believes his money will go far buying comic books. My friend also jokes about paying less taxes than ever so he needs a place to park his money and he's got plenty of it. Has no clue on what to buy so I can easily advise him to spend 10k on a 3.0 Cap 74. Believe me that it won't be a problem for him but my role as his friend is not to mix business with friendship so I referred him a few books about comic books before he jumps in. There are plenty of people like him in the world of vintage comic books- lots of $ to spend but little or no clue about what to buy. And the speculators, flippers, and a dealer or two who have books pressed repeatedly and have a restoration guy that can remove defects without getting called out for restoration and micro-trim, know this.

Perhaps the next recession or what are they calling them now? Correction? Will change things?

Edited June 23, 2019 by bronze johnny

[Robot Man]

3 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Cap 74 is one of those "personal favorites of mine" books. Some covers will have a more significant impact on the person seeing it than it would on others. Does this book have a cover that distinguishes itself from other horror-like covers published during the Atomic Age (this isn't a Golden Age book) era? Is it in the same league as the greatest horror covers of the Atomic Age era? Tomb of Terror 15? Does it stand out like Thing 15? 7? Weird Mysteries 4? 5? Horrific 3? Weird Chills 2? Crime Suspenstories 22? 20? 17? Shock Suspenstories 6? Black Cat Mystery 50? 45? Worlds of Fear 10? Weird Tales of the Future 7? Mister Mystery 12? Could anyone say that these books do not have classic covers?

One way to get an idea whether a cover deserves the adjective "classic" is to place it next to the above mentioned books and see how it looks?

I dunno, you judge. Personally. It would be at the bottom of that list to me. Right next to Black Cat #45 (also poorly drawn in my opinion). 

There is no denying it’s historical place in comics but we are talking classic covers here. It just doesn’t measure up to these to me cover wise. 

Just MY 10 cents...

[szav]

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

The history is so significant in defining books like Cap 74 and that's what makes it a "classic book"

There's no denying its coolness, historic importance, or desirability at all, and I wouldn't make any argument against the prices it gets either. 

And I'm probably nerding out and getting too much into the semantics but I just don't think its a "classic cover."  As other's have stated, and of course its just a matter of personal opinions, but I just don't think its a very well constructed or executed drawing.  I like the cover to 75 better.

I wouldn't even call it a "classic book", I think that's misusing the word classic... were the stories or content in it somehow exemplary or enduring? (cant say I've ever read them).  Historically important? Yes.  Classic.  Dunno.

Again, no argument here about the books importance or desirability.  Just think the label note saying "Classic Red Skull Cover" doesn't put it in its proper context or do it justice.  For what we pay to put books like this in a slab...$150+...shouldn't CGC be able to find a way put in a couple paragraph write up on the books importance on the backside?  Remove or shrink some of the legal mumbo jumbo...and write something similar to what you said on it.

 

 

[bronze johnny]

1 minute ago, szav said:

There's no denying its coolness, historic importance, or desirability at all, and I wouldn't make any argument against the prices it gets either. 

And I'm probably nerding out and getting too much into the semantics but I just don't think its a "classic cover."  As other's have stated, and of course its just a matter of personal opinions, but I just don't think its a very well constructed or executed drawing.  I like the cover to 75 better.

I wouldn't even call it a "classic book", I think that's misusing the word classic... were the stories or content in it somehow exemplary or enduring? (cant say I've ever read them).  Historically important? Yes.  Classic.  Dunno.

Again, no argument here about the books importance or desirability.  Just think the label note saying "Classic Red Skull Cover" doesn't put it in its proper context or do it justice.  For what we pay to put books like this in a slab...$150+...shouldn't CGC be able to find a way put in a couple paragraph write up on the books importance on the backside?  Remove or shrink some of the legal mumbo jumbo...and write something similar to what you said on it.

 

 

I don't see it as a classic cover but personally like it. 

It is a classic book on account of its place in the history of Marvel Comics (Timely-Atlas-Marvel) and Captain America. A collector of Marvel precode horror has this book in mind. Is it a classic for DC collectors of that era? No. Fiction House collectors? No. GGA collectors? No. Crime comic book collectors? No. Romance collectors? No. Four-Color collectors? No. Funnies-Humor collectors? No.

The same can be said for a number of comics from that era. Keep in mind that there are first appearance books out there that some claim to have classic covers. Some are and others aren't.

 

[bronze johnny]

32 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I dunno, you judge. Personally. It would be at the bottom of that list to me. Right next to Black Cat #45 (also poorly drawn in my opinion). 

There is no denying it’s historical place in comics but we are talking classic covers here. It just doesn’t measure up to these to me cover wise. 

Just MY 10 cents...

Think you're missing my point. Cap 74 is significant on account of its place in the history of Timely-Atlas-Marvel. I wouldn't place it among the classic covers of that era but it is a key transition book for Marvel.

Great books by the way!

BCM 45 is a classic cover with a classic story- a double in baseball !

Edited June 23, 2019 by bronze johnny

[bronze johnny]

23 minutes ago, szav said:

There's no denying its coolness, historic importance, or desirability at all, and I wouldn't make any argument against the prices it gets either. 

And I'm probably nerding out and getting too much into the semantics but I just don't think its a "classic cover."  As other's have stated, and of course its just a matter of personal opinions, but I just don't think its a very well constructed or executed drawing.  I like the cover to 75 better.

I wouldn't even call it a "classic book", I think that's misusing the word classic... were the stories or content in it somehow exemplary or enduring? (cant say I've ever read them).  Historically important? Yes.  Classic.  Dunno.

Again, no argument here about the books importance or desirability.  Just think the label note saying "Classic Red Skull Cover" doesn't put it in its proper context or do it justice.  For what we pay to put books like this in a slab...$150+...shouldn't CGC be able to find a way put in a couple paragraph write up on the books importance on the backside?  Remove or shrink some of the legal mumbo jumbo...and write something similar to what you said on it.

 

 

I like your suggestion about cgc putting more information out regarding the history of a book but it wouldn't be fair to hold a grading company accountable for providing this. CGC is about grading and shouldn't be relied on for anything more. Besides, we have the boards to share this stuff and keep it accurate when necessary.

[Robot Man]

40 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Think you're missing my point. Cap 74 is significant on account of its place in the history of Timely-Atlas-Marvel. I wouldn't place it among the classic covers of that era but it is a key transition book for Marvel.

Great books by the way!

BCM 45 is a classic cover with a classic story- a double in baseball !

I see your point. Poor Cap was losing it at this point. Timely/Marvel was losing ground to many other genres at this point. Especially horror. They wern’t the only ones jumping on the band wagon at that point. Fawcett, Quality, Fiction House were also swaying that way to boost sales. Cap was hurting so bad that the next issues was all horror without even a mention of him. I would consider #75 even more significant for that reason.

And thank you and damn you for convincing me to drag out some horror boxes! . Now I gotta read some again starting with BCM #45!

[bronze johnny]

Just now, Robot Man said:

I see your point. Poor Cap was losing it at this point. Timely/Marvel was losing ground to many other genres at this point. Especially horror. They wern’t the only ones jumping on the band wagon at that point. Fawcett, Quality, Fiction House were also swaying that way to boost sales. Cap was hurting so bad that the next issues was all horror without even a mention of him. I would consider #75 even more significant for that reason.

And thank you and damn you for convincing me to drag out some horror boxes! . Now I gotta read some again starting with BCM #45!

Keep dragging out those horror boxes. I never get tired of looking at your books! 

[Cat-Man_America]

7 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Looks like you already did!

LOL! Yeah, it does seem like that.  Truth is, I bought this 7.0 copy at SDCC from Metro/ComicConnect way back during their Super Soldier Collection promotion where they conducted sales from their booth & the internet simultaneously.  Amazing that they were able to pull that off.  I targeted books both ways (on-line and at their San Diego booth) and recall coming away with four Timelys.

I’m always looking to upgrade #74 to an 8.5 or higher.  Given that this is such a terrible cover I invite folks to unburden themselves of any high grade copy at their earliest convenience.  I’ll make the supreme sacrifice by offering to purchase it.  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

7 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Given that this is such a terrible cover I invite folks to unburden themselves of any high grade copy at their earliest convenience.  I’ll make the supreme sacrifice by offering to purchase it.  

And I’ll relieve you of your inferior undercopy

[N e r V]

Captain America #74 is symbolic of the end of not only the character but the entire Timely superhero line. Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, gone. Marvel Mystery, gone and transformed into the horror themed Marvel Tales. With issue #74 he was alone trying to hold out with his book getting the horror themed Weird Tales added to it and a menacing Red Skull cover. As Steranko said by the next issue he was gone. Unable to keep his own book. 

More than any other book Captain America #74 resonates with me as the end of the Timely era and a nod to what would become known as the Atlas comics of the 1950’s. I love that book. Wish I still owned one based on its own merits its current value be damned...

Edited June 23, 2019 by N e r V

[Cat-Man_America]

14 hours ago, N e r V said:

Captain America #74 is symbolic of the end of not only the character but the entire Timely superhero line. Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, gone. Marvel Mystery, gone and transformed into the horror themed Marvel Tales. With issue #74 he was alone trying to hold out with his book getting the horror themed Weird Tales added to it and a menacing Red Skull cover. As Steranko said by the next issue he was gone. Unable to keep his own book. 

More than any other book Captain America #74 resonates with me as the end of the Timely era and a nod to what would become known as the Atlas comics of the 1950’s. I love that book. Wish I still owned one based on its own merits its current value be damned...

I agree that Cap #74 was essentially the end of the GA ...at least for Timely..., but have to add that the opinion excerpted while thoughtful and well executed doesn't concur with my assessment of the sustainability of superheroes.  

Edited June 24, 2019 by Cat-Man_America
Revised upon reconsideration

[N e r V]

3 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I agree that Cap #74 was essentially the end of the GA ...at least for Timely..., but have to add that the opinionator who wrote the brief article was a few bricks shy of a full load when it came to knowing anything about comics or the sustainability of superheroes.

That would be James Steranko...

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

9 minutes ago, N e r V said:

That would be James Steranko...

Cat, I love you like a brother, but I thought the writing was poignant.  To me it spoke of a war weary nation turning their attention away from a horror story, and getting on with their business of surviving.  They needed the morale boost brought by these heroes, but once the cloud was lifted, Americans found they no longer needed the crutch.  And so the heroes got left behind without so much as a thank you.  Like Andy's toys when Andy left for college in Toy Story.

To me, that's all the author is trying to say. 

Turns out, even though the young readers seemed to have discarded their heroes, they never truly forgot, and came back. 

[Robot Man]

2 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Cat, I love you like a brother, but I thought the writing was poignant.  To me it spoke of a war weary nation turning their attention away from a horror story, and getting on with their business of surviving.  They needed the morale boost brought by these heroes, but once the cloud was lifted, Americans found they no longer needed the crutch.  And so the heroes got left behind without so much as a thank you.  Like Andy's toys when Andy left for college in Toy Story.

To me, that's all the author is trying to say. 

Turns out, even though the young readers seemed to have discarded their heroes, they never truly forgot, and came back. 

I think it was more of us younger guys discovering the Timely heroes for the first time. I knew nothing of Timely when I was buying early Marvels off the newsstand. It took me a few years to discover the original 1940’s characters.

[N e r V]

18 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I think it was more of us younger guys discovering the Timely heroes for the first time. I knew nothing of Timely when I was buying early Marvels off the newsstand. It took me a few years to discover the original 1940’s characters.

The superheroes popularity in the 1940’s was certainly war driven but comic book sales hit their zenith in the 1950’s largely without superhero comics.  I still believe if the code wasn’t forced on the industry when it was the superhero comeback probably would have been delayed longer until the current trends ran their course. At best if the superhero comeback still happened when it did it would be muted by much of the other popular genres still happening. Horror in particular wouldn’t fade so fast without the code punishing it and comics probably would have been a much more mature and accepted idea to the public then the road they took after the code.

But it didn’t happen that way and we got the code allowing DC to get the idea to try the worthy concept of superheroes in force over a period of years with Marvel finally redefining the genre forever in the 1960’s.

The superhero from the “golden age” clearly had to change by the 1960’s to stay viable until today. Steranko s perspective was based on his own experiences and his knowledge of people in the industry now long gone. Sadly only 2 of the planned 6 volumes made it into print.

My rant for the evening...