Question about Kirby at DC
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1 minute ago, jools&jim said:

 

That bolsters nothing.  When Smith finally got a gig at Marvel, he was a snot-nosed Kirby imitator with lots of potential but  ZERO experience in the big leagues. 

He was no Jack Kirby back then, and I am confident that he would surely be the first to admit it.  That Stan re-worked his novice stuff isn't even remotely surprising...

agree to disagree then.  I say Stan wrote the stories.  I further bolster it by comparing the dialogue and plot from say an FF issue and a Devil Dinosaur issue.  Completely different writing styles.

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"Jack Kirby" wrote and "plotted" in a "style" that was "completely" different than the "way" Stan the "Man" wrote. 

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3 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

It took me until middle age to finally be able to reassess and truly appreciate the genius of Devil Dinosaur.

I’d walk out as well.

You misunderstand. No one walked out. Others in the panel agreed with Mike before the panel started, but clammed up when they heard the boos.

I should have said "threw him under the bus", or some other term describing two-faced cowardice lol

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1 minute ago, jools&jim said:

That's clearly true.  But Kirby DID plot...which is, as I'm sure you know, an integral part of, y'know, telling a story.

Even Stan admitted (sometimes reluctantly; sometimes much less so) that his artists were co-creators, and were (in the absence of full scripts, which Stan simply didn't have time for) 100% responsible for the panel-to-panel visual continuity -- sometimes with the kernel of an idea from Stan (e.g., his infamously short-handed "The FF meets God" direction for FF 48 - 50); sometimes with a little more than that; sometimes in collaboration with the artists; and sometimes with nothing or very little from him at all.

There is NO DOUBT whatsoever that Marvel's glory days in the '60s were a collaborative effort, meaning that Stan and his artists were, at the very least, co-writers and co-creators of their stories.

Is it really that complicated? 

Just because you don't like Jack's dialogue on his later, '70s and post-Stan Marvel stuff (and you're not alone in that), doesn't mean that Jack wasn't a "writer": he was creating characters and telling stories long before he started working with Stan, and long after their partnership had dissolved...

I admire your passion and love for Kirby but you are wrong-I DO like his 70s dialogue.  It's goofy and wonderful and full of a kind of energy and excitement I cant even describe.   Especially the Demon.   I agree that they 'co-wrote the earlier stories, with Jack plotting and Stan scripting.  

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"Gone, gone, the form of man, rise the Demon-Etrigan!" is as soul stirring to me as "In brightest day, in blackest night".

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, kav said:

I admire your passion and love for Kirby but you are wrong-I DO like his 70s dialogue.  It's goofy and wonderful and full of a kind of energy and excitement I cant even describe... 

Sorry man...a shoddy false conclusion on my part -- couldn't agree with you more!  :foryou:

Jack's dialogue is an acquired taste, it's true.  Come to think of it, blowhard that I am, I wrote about it here several years ago:

 

Edited by jools&jim

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3 minutes ago, jools&jim said:

Sorry man...a shoddy false conclusion on my part -- couldn't agree with you more!  :foryou:

Jack's dialogue is an acquired taste, it's true.  Come to think of it, I wrote about it here several years ago:

 

Great!  Another interesting Kirby thread to peruse!  Kirby's ability to create full blown characters of every kind was unmatched!

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13 hours ago, kav said:

agree to disagree then.  I say Stan wrote the stories.  I further bolster it by comparing the dialogue and plot from say an FF issue and a Devil Dinosaur issue.  Completely different writing styles.

This.  You can't struggle through the Eternals and even imagine that it's written by the same guy responsible for silver-age Marvel.  I'm sure Kirby had more than a little influence on the direction of the early Marvel superhero stories, but it was Stan doing the heavy lifting WRT the dialogue.

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Here are a couple otther series I liked by the King.

Image result for demon by jack kirby     Image result for mister miracle by jack kirby

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Posted (edited)

I don't know why, but this panel from issue #13 (I think), has stuck with me through the years. "Mortals are brave but foolhardy!" is a line I just can't forget.

demon #13 panel_edited.jpg

Edited by Jaylam

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Kirby's art was such that an inker could seriously affect the finished product - look at how Kirby's pencils popped when a Joe Sinnott fleshed them out.

A lot of his stuff post-Fourth World was inked by Mike Royer, and in my opinion, Royer probably wasn't the best embellisher to bring out Kirby's strengths (witness the square-off fingers, etc.).

Kirby's characters and stories were never again as brilliant as what he contributed to the classic Marvel era - but, to be fair, you'll notice that Stan never wrote anything brilliant after he left, either.

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Lee stopped writing monthly comics is ‘72. 

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1 hour ago, heinlein991 said:

Kirby's art was such that an inker could seriously affect the finished product - look at how Kirby's pencils popped when a Joe Sinnott fleshed them out.

A lot of his stuff post-Fourth World was inked by Mike Royer, and in my opinion, Royer probably wasn't the best embellisher to bring out Kirby's strengths (witness the square-off fingers, etc.).

Kirby's characters and stories were never again as brilliant as what he contributed to the classic Marvel era - but, to be fair, you'll notice that Stan never wrote anything brilliant after he left, either.

Mike Royer isn't an embellisher. He never felt his job was to "take away" from the artist, especially Kirby, so he inked exactly what Kirby, and everyone else he's ever inked, penciled. If he were an embellisher, he never would have been hired by Kirby after auditioning in JK's home with the King looking over his shoulder. And MR will tell you himself, he didn't work for DC Comics, he worked for Jack Kirby.

I'm not saying JK's work by other inkers isn't good; Kirby/Sinnott is my favorite FF duo, but MR was 100% faithful to JK's pencils. He would never dream of taking an eraser to JK"s background pencils like Colletta did- He was fast enough to ink AND letter JK's 3 daily pages.

"Bringing out Kirby's strengths" means making it look less JK? hm 

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On 7/1/2019 at 12:09 AM, jools&jim said:

Sorry man...a shoddy false conclusion on my part -- couldn't agree with you more!  :foryou:

Jack's dialogue is an acquired taste, it's true.  Come to think of it, blowhard that I am, I wrote about it here several years ago:

 

When Levitz did his big DC book, he went back and looked at sales numbers through the years and what he says is that the Fourth World books were 'middle of the pack'. Not great sellers, not poor sellers, but in the middle.

Of course DC was expecting Jack to produce hits right off... here's one of the better articles discussing all of this:

 "It wasn’t enough for DC. Sales were fine, but Kirby was supposed to be better than fine. “They wanted it to really knock the block off Marvel when they got Jack,” Evanier recalls. DC was in dire need of a megahit, too — the comics industry was in a slump, and DC was hit especially hard after Marvel started undercutting them with a price decrease from 25 cents to 20. DC kept launching new series — not just Kirby’s — and abandoning them at the first sign that they might not explode, just so they could make room for the next attempt."

https://www.vulture.com/2017/11/jack-kirby-fourth-world-steppenwolf-justice-league.html

 

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This quote is apocryphal and if it was true, Jimmy Olsen was far from DC's lowest selling comic at the time.

In Jimmy Olsen #136, reported sales in the statement of ownership was 333k (this was likely for an issue or two before Kirby came onto the title). The next issue with a statement of ownership was #147 had sales just under 300k (this was likely one of the first Kirby issues). I did a quick search and found that Green Lantern had a statement of ownership around the same time as JO #136, and their reported sales were 133k.

Superman family titles were dropping in sales, yes. But they were still some of the highest selling titles that DC had.

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I really love DC stuff Kirby did the 70s, warts and all. It's very true that many of the stories were wild and not necessarily cohesive, but the energy and imagination is incredible. There's a reason those stories are venerated by guys like Moore, Gaiman and Morrison - all guys who know a thing or two about comic storytelling. 

On the topic of his dialogue, a friend once compared it to sugary candy. It's great and fun but also will leave you a bit queasy if you consume too much of it in one sitting. 

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Only Kirby could come up with oddball ideas Like Mister 1 and Mister 2

 

Mister_One_(Earth-616)_from_Captain_America_Annual_Vol_1_4.png

Mister_Two_%28Earth-616%29_from_Captain_America_Annual_Vol_1_4.png

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I've never been a fan of Jack Kirby's art. I've always found his art in a way brash. Of his DC work New Gods has to be his best as it's the series that seems to lend itself best to Kirby's style. Mister Miracle doesn't feel right without Kirby, however most inner panels at least in issue 1 look pretty bad. The inker could be to blame, but I just really can't get behind any work Kirby did in the 70s. I just find his style ugly and overbearing. 2c

Just take a look at his BP #1 cover and tell me you don't want to vomit.

 

5015424.jpg

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