When do Cameos count and not count as First appearances and CGC remarks? 3 3

[William-James88]

Sorry if this is not posted in the right place, let me know if that's not the case. I was looking for the first appearance of King Shark and was told it was both Superboy 0 and Superboy 9. Many ebay listings pair them together. Superboy 9 is seen as the more valuable of the two with Superboy 0 just being an extra and when both are slabbed by CGC, there is no mention of King Shark on the Superboy 0 slab. So does his cameo in Superboy 0 not count as his first appearance? 

I find it often hard to assess what counts and doesnt count. The first Darkseid is said to be in Jimmy Olsen but we only see a very small bit of him while we see him fully as we know him in Forever People 1, yet no one cares about the Forever People 1 comic (as can be seen from market prices). Killer Croc's first appearance is said to be in Detective 523 and yet we only see him under a coat with his whole face and body obscured in a panel or two. And yet that's the pricy books, while venom has a similar cameo in Amazin Spider-man 299 but 300 is his pricey first appearance. I just dont get how that particular market works. Do you guys own both the cameo and first full appearance to be sure? 

And why doesnt CGC mark anything on the Superboy 0 comic slab?

[ExNihilo]

My general rule of thumb is if a character appears in one panel, it's a cameo.  If they appear in multiple panels, it's a first appearance.  IH 180/181 and ASM 299/300 illustrate this point well.  Characters appearing hidden in shadows or only partial/unrecognizable body parts don't count as full cameos but are "cameo in shadows" (see The Batman Who Laughs and Venom, who appeared in shadows prior to 299).  I'm unfamiliar with King Shark's appearances, so I can't speak for the differences between Superboy 0 and 9.

[ADAMANTIUM]

18 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

My general rule of thumb is if a character appears in one panel, it's a cameo.  If they appear in multiple panels, it's a first appearance.  IH 180/181 and ASM 299/300 illustrate this point well.  Characters appearing hidden in shadows or only partial/unrecognizable body parts don't count as full cameos but are "cameo in shadows" (see The Batman Who Laughs and Venom, who appeared in shadows prior to 299).  I'm unfamiliar with King Shark's appearances, so I can't speak for the differences between Superboy 0 and 9.

I tend to agree, although not always the case, e.g. red Sonja.

If I remember #0 it was one of the first with the new superboy,  at the end there us someone in the ocean needing saving, or maybe I'm thinking of #9.... any way the story was along the lines of, was superboy as strong and capable ad superman as it was televised.....?

thats my memory anyway

Edited July 9, 2019 by ADAMANTIUM
Spelling

[ADAMANTIUM]

Maybe it was the one where superboy was faking rescuing people for ratings on the tv and king shark turned out to be a real threat, I think that's more like it...

Edited July 9, 2019 by ADAMANTIUM

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

The bottom line is that CGC is in the business of grading, not of identifying first appearances. My understanding is that if you ask them to note something on the label, they will try to verify whether that information is accurate, and if it is, they'll add it. King Shark is probably not important enough a character for people to be asking them to confirm first appearances or cameos.

Historically, if you wanted to read a story, you needed to buy the original comic that the story appeared in. That's why Hulk 181 and Spider-man 300 go for more than the previous issue. People wanted to read the first story of a character, not a story that ended with a tease for the character. And it takes a long time for something like that to correct, if it ever does. Arguably, the original Valiant line changed the game, as they had a habit of introducing new characters with a last-page cameo for characters that they had already announced were going to be starring in their own series, and this happened at a time when people were speculating heavily on Valiant. First appearances of Harbinger were going for a ton when Eternal Warrior #4 hit the stand with a Bloodshot cameo, who had a series coming. Bloodshot #6 teased Ninjak. Shadowman #16 teased Dr. Mirage. So those books were gobbled up.

With collected editions and digital editions readily available for people to read, the first appearance, even if it's a cameo, carries a greater weight than it used to.

[kairos70]

9 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Do you guys own both the cameo and first full appearance to be sure?

That's what I usually do. I don't believe in shunning one comic over another if both are easy to acquire.

[World Devourer]

11 hours ago, kairos70 said:

That's what I usually do. I don't believe in shunning one comic over another if both are easy to acquire.

Heh. "If" being the operative word.

IH #180 features Wolverine in one panel, while #182 features the character in several panels on the first page only. I don't rate either issue but neither is cheap.

It is all perception.

[kairos70]

3 hours ago, World Devourer said:

Heh. "If" being the operative word.

IH #180 features Wolverine in one panel, while #182 features the character in several panels on the first page only. I don't rate either issue but neither is cheap.

It is all perception.

Well this is the modern age thread so we're not talking IH #180. 

[divad]

Let's play the devil's advocate . . . 

• A "cameo" cannot be a 1st appearance, as the character must have already appeared and be known to the viewing public to appear in a cameo appearance. 
• The first time a character appears within a story, and is identified by name, constitutes the first appearance of that character (regardless of scope or breadth of appearance.) 
• Any brief appearance of a character thereafter in a story (not on the cover) is a "cameo." 
• Any 1st appearance of a character on the cover is a 1st Cover Appearance, and ultimately, is the appearance of the character that SHOULD have the most value, by ANY metric.     

[divad]

On 7/9/2019 at 9:15 AM, William-James88 said:

Sorry if this is not posted in the right place, let me know if that's not the case. I was looking for the first appearance of King Shark and was told it was both Superboy 0 and Superboy 9. Many ebay listings pair them together. Superboy 9 is seen as the more valuable of the two with Superboy 0 just being an extra and when both are slabbed by CGC, there is no mention of King Shark on the Superboy 0 slab. So does his cameo in Superboy 0 not count as his first appearance? 

I find it often hard to assess what counts and doesnt count. The first Darkseid is said to be in Jimmy Olsen but we only see a very small bit of him while we see him fully as we know him in Forever People 1, yet no one cares about the Forever People 1 comic (as can be seen from market prices). Killer Croc's first appearance is said to be in Detective 523 and yet we only see him under a coat with his whole face and body obscured in a panel or two. And yet that's the pricy books, while venom has a similar cameo in Amazin Spider-man 299 but 300 is his pricey first appearance. I just dont get how that particular market works. Do you guys own both the cameo and first full appearance to be sure? 

And why doesnt CGC mark anything on the Superboy 0 comic slab?

This is the best "first appearance" by a boardie I have seen in a while - WTTB!!!

[WhatMeWorry]

Superboy #0

[divad]

See my earlier post . . . 

[ExNihilo]

2 hours ago, WhatMeWorry said:

Superboy #0

That's the "appearance" from Superboy #0?  That's not even a full fledged cameo.  That's a "cameo in shadows" for sure.

[divad]

8 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

That's the "appearance" from Superboy #0?  That's not even a full fledged cameo.  That's a "cameo in shadows" for sure.

Actually, on further reflection, that is definitely a 1st appearance of Nanaue. He's identified by name (although not "King Shark"); he appears in several panels; he is very much integral to the story, and he is clearly identifiable as a killer shark.)

 

[Lazyboy]

On 7/10/2019 at 12:46 PM, divad said:

A "cameo" cannot be a 1st appearance, as the character must have already appeared and be known to the viewing public to appear in a cameo appearance.

Yes, the proper terminology for a first appearance that is brief is "first brief appearance" (shocking, I know).

On 7/10/2019 at 12:46 PM, divad said:

The first time a character appears within a story, and is identified by name, constitutes the first appearance of that character (regardless of scope or breadth of appearance.)

Fixed. It's not that uncommon for a character to not be named in their first issue.

But appearances (first or otherwise) are not all created equal, which is why "first full appearance" is a common designation.

On 7/10/2019 at 12:46 PM, divad said:

Any brief appearance of a character thereafter in a story (not on the cover) is a "cameo."

Yes.

On 7/10/2019 at 12:46 PM, divad said:

Any 1st appearance of a character on the cover is a 1st Cover Appearance, and ultimately, is the appearance of the character that SHOULD have the most value, by ANY metric.

While people obviously buy many comics solely or largely for their covers, they aren't the only meaningful part of a comic. Also, the quality of the depiction can vary greatly between issues.

[Lazyboy]

On 7/9/2019 at 11:15 AM, William-James88 said:

yet no one cares about the Forever People 1 comic (as can be seen from market prices)

What?

[William-James88]

9 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

What?

The book sells at guide or below guide on ebay. I rarely see that to be the case for other key books and first appearances. In 2019, people can still own the first full appearance of Darkseid, one of DC's most iconic villains, from a 40 year old book for less than 30 bucks in VG. Thats doesnt sound like a whole lot of intetest to me.

[divad]

6 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

9 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

What?

The book sells at guide or below guide on ebay. I rarely see that to be the case for other key books and first appearances. In 2019, people can still own the first full appearance of Darkseid, one of DC's most iconic villains, from a 40 year old book for less than 30 bucks in VG. Thats doesnt sound like a whole lot of intetest to me.

WJ - no one around here thinks of VG in terms of market value . . . 

[William-James88]

8 hours ago, divad said:

WJ - no one around here thinks of VG in terms of market value . . . 

I will admit, I am rather out of my element here, Donnie, like a fish out of water.

On 7/11/2019 at 1:32 AM, ExNihilo said:

That's the "appearance" from Superboy #0?  That's not even a full fledged cameo.  That's a "cameo in shadows" for sure.

It's more than what we see of Killer Croc in Detective 523 and yet that book is way hotter than Detective 524, Croc's first full appearance. I am curious to see if there will be a switch in e-bay prices between Superboy 0 and 9 once the suicide squad movie comes out.

On 7/10/2019 at 1:48 PM, divad said:

This is the best "first appearance" by a boardie I have seen in a while - WTTB!!!

That is most kind of you, thank you.

[sagekilz]

Just fuel for the fire...
 

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