szav Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 53 minutes ago, lou_fine said: I would tend to agree that Heritage most definitely knew the history of the book. At the same time though, i do not believe they would have made the same typo twice in their original advertisement and spin job on the book. To me, that is totally unbelievable a mistake of this magnitude would not have been caught before the ad went out. I think what happened here is that Heritage did know about the history of the book, but was banking on the hope that nobody else would know about the history of the book. So, it would appear that Masterchief's outing of this particular copy is going to cost the consignor of this book a significant amount of dollars here. Or at least that's the way that I see the picture of what took place here. Not sure I buy this was a conspiracy... if HA thought it would negatively impact what the book fetched I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have jumped at reholdering in its ugly new black holder. Or ... maybe this is the devilish coverup. Or... Much as it pains me to appear to defend HA... maybe someone made a simple mistake with the 2 mil thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 1:22 PM, sfcityduck said: Comic collecting was going strong in the early and mid 60s, and there are a lot of collectors who were collecting back then who are still sitting on their collections. So I'm not going to be shocked when new high grade AF 15s emerge. Many folks don't encapsulate until they want to sell, and a lot of long time collectors just aren't interested in selling yet (if ever). Just think about it, we may never see the top Action 1, Superman 1, D27 or MC 1 ever encapsulated. Not hard to believe that equally passionate collectors are sitting on the much more plentiful Marvel keys. I actually think some of these collections will have books that cgc cbcs etc will actively seek and slab for free for the media attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 12:18 AM, MasterChief said: Here's another good look at the Larson Copy in its raw state prior to certification. The image is from Sotheby's Comic Books and Comic Art Catalogue, Sale 7008, June 1997. It's a great photo that portrays the roundness of the spine, among other physical aspects. However, 5-1/2 years after the initial 1991 Sotheby sale, the UV damage is apparent and noted in the auction description. Also described are additional defects not mentioned in the '91 sale. (Perhaps the then owner caused more damage other than the UV fading?) The side-by-side comparison below helps illustrate the UV damage. The images have not been adjusted post scanning. The first image looked like Sotherbys cropped the image. And comparing the colors of 2 photos years apart seems ridiculous as even now if 10 dif scanners scan a book all will look different and also different on each person’s computer etc. That said, I’m not saying you’re wrong about your findings. Just not enough in the pics for me to be 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 The reds already look better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Knightsofold said: The reds already look better! I'm confused. Why compare the Windy City to the Larson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopKulture Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, szav said: Not sure I buy this was a conspiracy... if HA thought it would negatively impact what the book fetched I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have jumped at reholdering in its ugly new black holder. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks those new black labels are ugly. D84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightsofold Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, sfcityduck said: I'm confused. Why compare the Windy City to the Larson? Me too, I thought we were talking about the same one still lol. Nvm then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 On 10/8/2019 at 5:10 AM, Chicago Boy said: Please share your specifics on the AC 1’s & Tec 27’s that have shown up “ recently “ ? By recently I mean the past few years and I recall few specifics but metropolis got one that was found in the drywall of an old house; another showed up on facebook a year or so ago that was missing the spine, and others on this board are bound to have knowledge I don't. But even a couple books showing up in the past few years means that 80 years on it's still not unheard of (or "inconceivable!") that a copy heretofore unknown becomes known. Chicago Boy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 11:26 PM, Crowzilla said: I don't think anyone would argue that there aren't more AF 15s in the wild to be found. At this point AF 15 is about 15 years older than the oldest book in the Church collection when it was brought to market, and while we absolutely know there are some original owner collections older than that here on the boards, the likelihood that any of them contain a 9.4 or greater AF15 is incredibly small. Look at the Don and Maggie collection. Both adult collectors at the dawn of the Marvel Age, and Maggie was a librarian, they knew what they were doing and made an effort to keep their books as nice as possible. But it's still serendipity which ones would up 7.5 and which ones wound up 9.4. For example Hulk 3-5 were all 9.4, but the #6 was only a 7.5. Like I said, in the last 16 years, only 4 copies have been added that were 9.4 or better, bringing the average down to 1 out of every 300 graded and the percentage is dropping. As we know more than 1,200 copies have been graded in the last 16 years. I don't know where Bluechip eats dinner and sees movies, but by 1982 when the Overstreet Update came out it was already a $1,000 book in NM. No one was wandering into a comic shop in the mid-80s, plopping down $50 and walking out with a NM copy that they've forgotten about for 35 years. Any "new" NM or better copies in the future are far more likely to be known copies with known collectors than newly discovered ones. Lots more copies out there for sure, but not lots in NM or better. I wasn't presuming that books less than NM were non-existent. I bought a poor condition copy of AF15 in the 80s for 5 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterChief Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) New scan up on Heritage. Good to see the "Wind City" pedigree attributed reclaiming its history and heritage. Marvel Comics #1 (Timely, 1939) CGC NM 9.4 Off-white pages Edited October 10, 2019 by MasterChief Link added porcupine48, comicdonna and Moondog 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttock Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 20 hours ago, lou_fine said: I would tend to agree that Heritage most definitely knew the history of the book. At the same time though, i do not believe they would have made the same typo twice in their original advertisement and spin job on the book. To me, that is totally unbelievable a mistake of this magnitude would not have been caught before the ad went out. I think what happened here is that Heritage did know about the history of the book, but was banking on the hope that nobody else would know about the history of the book. So, it would appear that Masterchief's outing of this particular copy is going to cost the consignor of this book a significant amount of dollars here. Or at least that's the way that I see the picture of what took place here. Heritage has never tried to hide a book's history. They maintain their sales archive without manipulation like other auction houses and encourage its use. Why would you ever think that they would be trying to hide a book's history? szav and sfcityduck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 36 minutes ago, buttock said: They maintain their sales archive without manipulation like other auction houses and encourage its use. That archive is one of the best resources in the business. Hakes does a good job too. Comicconnect and Comiclink suck on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tth2 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 21 hours ago, lou_fine said: I think what happened here is that Heritage did know about the history of the book, but was banking on the hope that nobody else would know about the history of the book. So, it would appear that Masterchief's outing of this particular copy is going to cost the consignor of this book a significant amount of dollars here. Or at least that's the way that I see the picture of what took place here. Nothing's been revealed about the book except here in this thread. Much as we'd like to think that these Boards are influential, I think there are lots of big collectors who pay no attention to these Boards. Do we think Hariri, for example, has any idea about these Boards? Conversely, I don't think anyone who's posted in this thread is a collector who's been driving the million dollar end of the market. So I doubt that what's been disclosed by Masterchef in this thread will have any impact on the price. In any event, even if the book has gone from an 8.5 to a 9.4, do the big spenders care? Do we think that the 9.4 Cap #1 went for less than it would've gone for if its history hadn't been revealed on these Boards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmehdy Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, tth2 said: Nothing's been revealed about the book except here in this thread. Much as we'd like to think that these Boards are influential, I think there are lots of big collectors who pay no attention to these Boards. Do we think Hariri, for example, has any idea about these Boards? Conversely, I don't think anyone who's posted in this thread is a collector who's been driving the million dollar end of the market. So I doubt that what's been disclosed by Masterchef in this thread will have any impact on the price. In any event, even if the book has gone from an 8.5 to a 9.4, do the big spenders care? Do we think that the 9.4 Cap #1 went for less than it would've gone for if its history hadn't been revealed on these Boards? I think it makes a difference to me as a collector to see a grade change that significant, but you would be shocked at the number of people who have never posted on the boards but still use them. I would not underestimate this boards power to provide the collecting community at large with significant information. Edited October 10, 2019 by Mmehdy PopKulture 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareHighGrade Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, tth2 said: Nothing's been revealed about the book except here in this thread. Much as we'd like to think that these Boards are influential, I think there are lots of big collectors who pay no attention to these Boards. Do we think Hariri, for example, has any idea about these Boards? Conversely, I don't think anyone who's posted in this thread is a collector who's been driving the million dollar end of the market. So I doubt that what's been disclosed by Masterchef in this thread will have any impact on the price. In any event, even if the book has gone from an 8.5 to a 9.4, do the big spenders care? Do we think that the 9.4 Cap #1 went for less than it would've gone for if its history hadn't been revealed on these Boards? Except for the author of this post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Boy Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Mmehdy said: I think it makes a difference to me as a collector to see a grade change that significant, but you would be shocked at the number of people who have never posted on the boards but still use them. I would not underestimate this boards power to provide the collecting community at large with significant information. I know of two 7 figures players that read but do not post. One of which told me the boards are full of and for insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartrexpress Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 2 hours ago, tth2 said: Nothing's been revealed about the book except here in this thread. Much as we'd like to think that these Boards are influential, I think there are lots of big collectors who pay no attention to these Boards. Do we think Hariri, for example, has any idea about these Boards? Conversely, I don't think anyone who's posted in this thread is a collector who's been driving the million dollar end of the market. So I doubt that what's been disclosed by Masterchef in this thread will have any impact on the price. In any event, even if the book has gone from an 8.5 to a 9.4, do the big spenders care? Do we think that the 9.4 Cap #1 went for less than it would've gone for if its history hadn't been revealed on these Boards? 11 minutes ago, RareHighGrade said: Except for the author of this post? IMO ... Heritage just like anyone could have overlooked or missed the pedigree.. Also mistakes happen as with the over estimate... I remember the White Rose Auction and didn't put it together.. (thanks for making us all aware here).. I would not have a problem if the Marvel 1 went from a 8.5 to a 9.4 if the potential existed for the upgrade. But after seeing the book in person IMO its still a 8.5 pushing 9.0. You cannot see the spine wear or the back cover top staple tears in the scan. In fact to compare scans is ludicrous as every computer is calibrated different and every scan at any given moment colors can look different. I have not seen the Mile High Marvel 1, but IMO the pay copy is amazing.. the Denver behind that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartrexpress Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, sartrexpress said: IMO ... Heritage just like anyone could have overlooked or missed the pedigree.. Also mistakes happen as with the over estimate... I remember the White Rose Auction and didn't put it together.. (thanks for making us all aware here).. I would not have a problem if the Marvel 1 went from a 8.5 to a 9.4 if the potential existed for the upgrade. But after seeing the book in person IMO its still a 8.5 pushing 9.0. You cannot see the spine wear or the back cover top staple tears in the scan. In fact to compare scans is ludicrous as every computer is calibrated different and every scan at any given moment colors can look different. I have not seen the Mile High Marvel 1, but IMO the pay copy is amazing.. the Denver behind that one. Also... does anyone know why the pay copy is not an October copy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primetime Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, sartrexpress said: Also... does anyone know why the pay copy is not an October copy? Since the October and November editions were printed and released within two weeks of each other, I speculate Goodman didn’t have any Oct copies around since they had sold out in a week. So he used a Nov copy as the Pay copy. pemart1966 and Badger 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Boy Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, Primetime said: Since the October and November editions were printed and released within two weeks of each other, I speculate Goodman didn’t have any Oct copies around since they had sold out in a week. So he used a Nov copy as the Pay copy. What’s a Pay Copy again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...