If Wolverine appeared in 2 panels of Hulk 180, then would it be his first appearance? 3 3

[kav]

The logic has always been "well he only appears in one panel so it's a cameo".  Ok what about 2 panels?  3? 6?  2 pages?  What's the cutoff point?

[James J Johnson]

12 minutes ago, kav said:

The logic has always been "well he only appears in one panel so it's a cameo".  Ok what about 2 panels?  3? 6?  2 pages?  What's the cutoff point?

I imagine that whatever criteria determines the distinction between the first Galactus appearance and the first full Galactus appearance would also govern the same criteria for Wolverine?

[kav]

7 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

I imagine that whatever criteria determines the distinction between the first Galactus appearance and the first full Galactus appearance would also govern the same criteria for Wolverine?

You would think-

[silversurfer275]

Yes for sure this would count as his 1st appearance 

[Logan510]

This topic = 

[kav]

3 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

This topic = 

[Ken Aldred]

I thought it had been established already via many threads, to the point of ,  that there's no consistency; for example, 1st Wolverine vs 1st Darkseid.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Ken Aldred

[kav]

1 minute ago, Ken Aldred said:

I thought it had been established already via many threads that there's no consistency, for example, 1st Wolverine vs 1st Darkseid.

 

Yes the point of this thread is a bit different-like what number of panels would convert over to full appearance.

[Readcomix]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Yes the point of this thread is a bit different-like what number of panels would convert over to full appearance.

Or maybe the real question is the significance of the brief appearance? Wolverine has one cool-looking "here I am" panel, but for all you know from that, Hulk backhands him next issue, never to be seen again. Without 181, you just don't know.

Darkseid is just a head on a screen in one panel, but whatever exactly he says (can't recall without digging it out) he's clearly the new bad@ss mastermind not to be trifled with. Not much of a look at him, but we get the idea about him.

Just trying to dig us a new rabbit hole in familiar soil; don't much care either way. But it makes some sense, no?

[dupont2005]

It’s his first appearance regardless. Some heroes first appearance is an issue of Previews or an ad in the back of the comic. People decide what the first appearance is for arbitrary reasons in some cases.

[kav]

2 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

Or maybe the real question is the significance of the brief appearance? Wolverine has one cool-looking "here I am" panel, but for all you know from that, Hulk backhands him next issue, never to be seen again. Without 181, you just don't know.

Darkseid is just a head on a screen in one panel, but whatever exactly he says (can't recall without digging it out) he's clearly the new bad@ss mastermind not to be trifled with. Not much of a look at him, but we get the idea about him.

Just trying to dig us a new rabbit hole in familiar soil; don't much care either way. But it makes some sense, no?

This does make sense.

[mattn792]

4 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

Or maybe the real question is the significance of the brief appearance? Wolverine has one cool-looking "here I am" panel, but for all you know from that, Hulk backhands him next issue, never to be seen again. Without 181, you just don't know.

Darkseid is just a head on a screen in one panel, but whatever exactly he says (can't recall without digging it out) he's clearly the new bad@ss mastermind not to be trifled with. Not much of a look at him, but we get the idea about him.

Just trying to dig us a new rabbit hole in familiar soil; don't much care either way. But it makes some sense, no?

This might be the best explanation I've seen of determining cameo vs first appearance.  

[kav]

6 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

This might be the best explanation I've seen of determining cameo vs first appearance.  

S-so you're saying my thread was useful after all?
@Logan510

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, Ken Aldred said:

I thought it had been established already via many threads, to the point of ,  that there's no consistency; for example, 1st Wolverine vs 1st Darkseid.

 

It has been. I've explained it numerous times. Hulk #180 IS the first appearance of Wolverine. But #181 is more valuable. Why? Here was my last post on it, back in May:

I keep seeing this discussed here and there over the years and occasionally I'll state WHY, but then still see it discussed. There is a very legitimate reason why Hulk #181 is more valuable than #180...

IH #180 is the first appearance of Wolverine (last panel cameo). But it's not as valuable on the open market as the first FULL appearance of Wolverine, which is #181. 

People always seemed to be more attracted to #181 and that was the issue they sought out. And it has to do with how much different the hobby was in 1974 through 1986 than it is now. For one thing, no one even considered an advertisement as a first appearance, and there wasn’t a Previews to go through...

So let’s say you picked up a copy of IH #180 and #181 in July of 1974. Both issues came out in the same month on the newsstand, so publication numbers should have been about the same. That’s not a FACT, but if anything influenced the unscientific reasoning behind publishers print totals of the day - the time of year - was one of those things. And both of these issues came out in the same month - July.

Now, let’s say you lent the copy to your cousin who lives an hour and a half down the highway. That’s a MILLION miles away to a 13 year old. So you’ve lost them forever. But man, you thought that Wolverine character was kinda cool.

The following spring (April of 1975) you pick up Giant Size X-Men #1  off the newsstand and you see Wolverine. Wow! He’s a part of the new X-Men team! Cool!

Now keep in mind - there is no trade paperback you can get for Hulk #180-181 at this time. If you missed (or in this case, lost) those issues - there was no way to read it. No reprint was available. It would not be reprinted for the first time in any form - that I’m aware of - until 1986 (#180 and #181 were reprinted for the first time in 1986 as a stand alone comic) - 12 years after they were first published!

There was no internet - at least not for general use - and the idea of a ‘digital’ file sounded like something out of a spy movie. The concept didn’t exist for comics.

BUT you start reading the new X-Men series and you think… I WANT to go back and read about when this character first appeared - it was different then - collectors were READERS - you wanted to READ about Wolverine’s first appearance… so which issue would you buy?

You’d buy #181. Because that’s the actual STORY of his first appearance.

In 1974-1986 (and longer) the majority of comic book ‘collectors’ were readers, first and foremost. It isn’t like today where the majority of comic book ‘collectors’ are sellers. Collectors READ and kept their books. The regular collection of reprints and trade paperback was still 25+ years away.

THIS is why, #181 is more popular than #180. It grew out of a natural collecting process built around readership. Not speculation.

There’s no shortage of #180. There’s more #181’s on the census because it’s a more valuable book to get graded. There was no real speculation at the time compared to today. DEALERS at some point figured it out, I’m sure (if they were good), but they almost certainly went by DEMAND, and that demand was from ‘collectors’ who were - READERS - and they chose #181.

 

Note: There were hoarders and speculators out there even in 1974, 1975 - but they were much, much, fewer and farther between. Today... it seems the majority of anyone collecting is a hoarder and speculator...

•  

Edited November 25, 2019 by Chuck Gower

[kav]

The point of this thread tho isn't why 181 is the first appearance but how many panels equals a first app/where is the line drawn.

[Logan510]

14 minutes ago, kav said:

S-so you're saying my thread was useful after all?
@Logan510

In the old days they would say this thread was a waste of bandwidth.

[Prince Namor]

And...

Yep, and even Marvel paved the way for fans by determining in Wolverine's first X-Men story, where to go to previously read about him...

[kav]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

In the old days they would say this thread was a waste of bandwidth.

Now we just say "Kav has started another thread"

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Now we just say "Kav has started another thread"

How about a new thread on the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 or one about a bad eBay transaction?

[kav]

4 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

How about a new thread on the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 or one about a bad eBay transaction?

On it-