Batman 1 CGC 9.4!!!! 6 6

[pemart1966]

6 hours ago, buttock said:

There are 2 Action 1 9.0s.  One was formerly an 8.0, and it's by far the nicer of the two.  The issue is that the CGC grade isn't the be-all arbiter of which copy is truly the nicest in a collector's eyes.  A CGC grade is a shortcut to try and give someone an idea of what a book looks like using a number.  Obviously that's going to have inadequacies.  And obviously it's a system that has flaws that people can take advantage of.  The error you're making is in giving WAY more power and credence to that simple number.  As virtually every other seasoned collector is aware, you judge the book on its own merit beyond the number on the label.  In this world of information, none of this is a secret, it took the boards a few hours to identify this book's history.  The sooner you can lose the hangup on the label number, the sooner you'll be able to move on.  It's nothing more than an opinion.  
 

Oh, and should CGC make an "original " label?  No.  That's a ridiculous idea.  Just no.

Maybe a partial answer to all of this is not to assign a numerical grade to any book - just list the descriptive facts about the book.  Agreed, a grade is an opinion.  It's totally subjective.  Ask 10 guys to grade the same book and you might get 8 different answers.

Notations like:  rusty staples; tanning pages; coupon missing; writing on cover and interior etc are not subjective.  They're made based on factual observation.  The same 10 guys that gave 8 different grades would all agree with these facts.  There's no disputing a missing coupon.

If you engage a trained professional to inspect a house that you're thinking of buying, he/she will give you a report outlining any shortcomings that they find.  They don't then grade the house on a scale of 1 to 10.  Same scenario with a used car:  you get "this is good; this is OK; this needs immediate attention".  It's not then followed up with a grade from 1-10.

Assigning a comic a grade from 1-10 inserts a psychological effect that should not and cannot be ignored.  Both buyers AND sellers are guilty of trying to chase the number and not the book err cover.  

Should there be an "original" label?  In theory "yes".  Is it practical? - no.

Pressing is sometimes so good that it's hard to tell.  Current owners may not truly know a book's history.  Even if a book's history is known, with some few exceptions, once it's cracked from a case, that history goes out the window.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by pemart1966

[PopKulture]

37 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

Yes, it's restoration by definition. You are literally trying to restore the book to a former state, a more favorable state. 

What we refer to as restoration is often repair (ex. tear seals, pieces added), or at the most mindful, conservation (ex. staples cleaned to prevent staining) .

The semantics of this was not as well thought out at the dawn of third party grading as it might have been, but let's be honest: by now it would have probably... evolved.  

 

[adamstrange]

27 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

Maybe a partial answer to all of this is not to assign a numerical grade to any book

Heresy!

[LDarkseid1]

3 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I do not think that this is old guy issue. let me present the real issue...is modification restoration?. the cgc which is in the business of pressing says no and they make the rules. you could under a perfect pressing situation buy a book off the newsstand with 9.6 grade and press it up to a 9.8. That is where the blurring occurs. So you have to have some reference point at which you can say this is the original comic book intended for the newsstand. Looking at pure reality..when you alter something you change it...whether you call it restoration, modification, green, purple or whatever. I think doing that in my mind DECREASES the value and of course the modification/restoration is 99.9% the increase value factor....One label,disclose everything including any history of pressing etc and lets get our GA/SA comic book community on one page....this I getting ridiculous when you cannot replace a rusted metal staple which is destroying the book having your label decreased, the staple has nothing to do with the book itself or its contents and its condition....the lines are too blurred and the price differences to great...the greed factor is resulting in Top of the census becoming meaningless. Short term a few profit, long term we all pay for this greed.

Ehh, I disagree and think it’s partly an older collector thing. I’ve heard a number of the older boardies on here complain about pressing and cleaning, and because CGC changed the perception when they decided to make it ok. Just my personal opinion. It was restoration pre-CGC, and suddenly wasn’t. I think accepting that change can be tough, and I can understand that. I don’t disagree about some of the points you make though and that greed clearly plays a role. I don’t mind subscribing to Mr. Gecko’s motto though, “greed is good” 😁. Anyway, I don’t have a problem with it, and there’s no guarantees it will make a book’s grade go up. There’s always the risk it could go down. Unlikely, but possible. I guess what I’m saying ultimately is I personally like the system of what is considered restoration/modification and have no problem with it. Totally fine if you or others don’t though of course. We can’t all agree on everything all the time 🙂.

[tth2]

12 hours ago, buttock said:

Let me play a little devil's advocate.  Before CGC you'd often look at a book like this -- prior to it being pressed -- and you'd say clearly that it was nicer than the technical grade.  One thing this discussion has fleshed out is that when comparing these 3 books, the one that's currently a 9.4 was the nicest of the three prior to any manipulation.  25 years ago if you put all 3 out in front of someone and asked them to grade them you'd get a clear hierarchy, but you wouldn't have needed to press out NCB wear to do so -- that would be factored into the grade.  At current you now have a grading company that has decided to make that NCB wear a greater part of the technical grade.  As a consequence of this, in order for the grades on the label to accurately reflect the degree of niceness of these books, you have to monkey with them.  (and let's be fair, pressing likely has zero consequence on the lifespan of the paper)  So all of this to say, that (as least as we're hearing in this thread) CGC actually got the hierarchy of the books right, which should be applauded.  It's just the way that the rules were defined that sits so poorly.  

Taking this a little further, if we wanted CGC to ignore that NCB wear and not factor it into the grade, then you'd get on a slippery slope where a 5 mm thumbnail crease is factored the same as a book length NCB reading bend.  I don't think any of us would be happy with that scenario either.  

But the take home message is that the books appear to have been sorted out accurately by grade, which means that the system actually worked.  

So bottom line is, pressable wear is a factor in grading.  CGC has to take it into account.  The only way to not have it taken into account is a) to not have books certified or b) press it out.  If anyone has any 7 figure books that they're willing to leave that money on the table on principle, then please reach out to me first before selling.  Going forward I just ask that anyone who is going to have a big book graded just have its potential maximized before ever getting it certified so that we no longer have to have these conversations.  

Nathan, is that you?

 

[tth2]

5 hours ago, buttock said:

14 hours ago, tth2 said:

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

Ah yes, original art, where nothing shady ever happens. 

Typical strawman argument.  Just because something's not perfect doesn't mean it's not better.

[LDarkseid1]

2 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

Ok fair enough, they do “alter” the book, in the sense they enhance it while still keeping it in its original form. The general forms of restoration however alter the book from its original form: chemically cleaning, color touch, adding pieces, etc... Still a big difference to me.

[tth2]

Anyways Dan (and Arnie), you can relax.  The battle has long been over, as I mentioned early on in this thread.  The surprise in this thread over pressing is so 2005. 

You guys won and absolutely routed the opposition a decade ago.  So no need to quickly tamp out any new expression of outrage from someone who's just recently discovered the rampant cracking, resubbing and pressing in this hobby.  It only makes it look like you're trying to hide something. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by tth2

[tth2]

2 minutes ago, LDarkseid1 said:

2 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

Ok fair enough, they do “alter” the book, in the sense they enhance it while still keeping it in its original form. The general forms of restoration however alter the book from its original form: chemically cleaning, color touch, adding pieces, etc... Still a big difference to me.

Actually, with professional restoration, all those "alterations" apparently can be reversed.  The color touch can be scraped off, the added pieces can be removed.

As far as I know, pressing can't be reversed.  Once pressed out, those NCBs are permanently gone.   

[LDarkseid1]

2 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Actually, with professional restoration, all those "alterations" apparently can be reversed.  The color touch can be scraped off, the added pieces can be removed.

As far as I know, pressing can't be reversed.  Once pressed out, those NCBs are permanently gone.   

Yeah that’s true there is restoration removal, but once again pressing and dry cleaning don’t add anything to the book. So still different from the normal forms of professional resto. However chemically cleaning of course can’t be reversed.

Edited December 6, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[buttock]

40 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Typical strawman argument.  Just because something's not perfect doesn't mean it's not better.

That's not a straw man argument.  

[PopKulture]

34 minutes ago, tth2 said:

The battle has long been over, as I mentioned early on in this thread.  The surprise in this thread over pressing is so 2005. 

You guys won and absolutely routed the opposition a decade ago.  So no need to quickly tamp out any new expression of outrage from someone who's just recently discovered the rampant cracking, resubbing and pressing in this hobby.  

Well, in fairness, this is my first public foray, dipping my toes into the tumultuous and treacherous sea of this long settled orthodoxy, so there's that!  

And I wasn't here for the Great Tamping of 2005, so as a reinforcement for the minority, I am woefully late in arrival and equally under-armed in resolve.  

But, that having been stated for the record, I will honor my family's good name and humbly accept my flogging with dignity and resignation. 

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, buttock said:

15 hours ago, tth2 said:

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

Ah yes, original art, where nothing shady ever happens. 

Yes indeed, as I believe some collectors have said that the OA market is just as bad as the comic book market, if not possibly even worse.  

[pemart1966]

55 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Actually, with professional restoration, all those "alterations" apparently can be reversed.  The color touch can be scraped off, the added pieces can be removed.

As far as I know, pressing can't be reversed.  Once pressed out, those NCBs are permanently gone.   

All of which take a toll on the book.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

[lou_fine]

23 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

On 12/4/2020 at 7:03 PM, Wayne-Tec said:

I still can’t get over how amazing this book is.

Ditto

I am getting lost in this big maze of books here. 

Exactly what book are we talking about here?  Is it this absolutely unimprovable amazing copy here:  

[waaaghboss]

31 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes indeed, as I believe some collectors have said that the OA market is just as bad as the comic book market, if not possibly even worse.  

Imagine if CGC started grading original art 

[LDarkseid1]

15 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

I am getting lost in this big maze of books here. 

Exactly what book are we talking about here?  Is it this absolutely unimprovable amazing copy here:  

But it was this copy and it was clearly improved. Most if not all of that dirt residue and smudges were dry cleaned off.

Edited December 6, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[lou_fine]

13 hours ago, buttock said:

At current you now have a grading company that has decided to make that NCB wear a greater part of the technical grade.  As a consequence of this, in order for the grades on the label to accurately reflect the degree of niceness of these books, you have to monkey with them.  (and let's be fair, pressing likely has zero consequence on the lifespan of the paper)  So all of this to say, that (as least as we're hearing in this thread) CGC actually got the hierarchy of the books right, which should be applauded.  It's just the way that the rules grading standards were defined redefined or monkeyed around with that sits so poorly.  

My concern is that with the current grading regime in place, they have seemingly made near invisible NCB not only a greater part of the technical grade, but possibly the biggest part of the technical grade.  Needless to say, this is being done for very obvious reasons.  

To reinforce this new grading or business strategy, it would appear that any defects that might inadvertently occur during this maximization of potential process has now moved much further down their Hit Parade when it comes to grading defects, as stated by other board members here before in the past also:  

6 hours ago, RareHighGrade said:

Many of the best books were pressed between the two auctions and the adverse consequences are evident.  Even though some of the books went up in grade, their spines were damaged, in some cases with spine splitting or loss of very small paper chips.

Even after the pressing, the BW books are still very nice, but they originally were nicer.

Yes, originally nicer but with lower grades, and now not as nice with possibly other types of more visible defects but with a higher grade.  

[bluechip]

4 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

If you open a book to read it, you alter it and then you alter it again when you close it -- "restoring" it to its original state.  If dust or crumbs gather on your book and you brush them off, you have restored it by cleaning it.  If you bend the corner too much reading it and then bend it back again, you've restored it.  Same thing if you put a weight on the book to flatten the bend by "pressing" it.  But if you just put the book at the bottom of a stack of books for no particular reason, the same alteration will occur without it being "restoration" because you didn't put it there with the intent of flattening it.  If somebody put a dot of black ink in a worn spot on a black field of the book, he's restored it.  But if somebody then scribbles in black ink over the same book while drawing a mustache on the face of the hero, inadvertently going over the same spot that was restored, the book may escape being labeled as restored because the mustache hides the restoration under new marks that clearly were made without the intent of restoring the book.   

Edited December 6, 2020 by bluechip