Who Really Created the Marvel Universe? 0

[bronze_rules]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/02/15/who-really-created-the-marvel-universe?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[Ken Aldred]

Long article, but eventually gets to the point, of Lee vs Kirby as primary creator, which is always an ongoing, partisan debate.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Ken Aldred

[F For Fake]

2 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

Long article, but eventually gets to the point, of Lee vs Kirby as primary creator, which is always an ongoing, partisan debate.

 Kirby.

[Mr bla bla]

Just now, F For Fake said:

 Kirby.

This ...

 

 

[Ken Aldred]

2 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

 Kirby.

The educated, connoisseur’s choice.   

[thunsicker]

1 hour ago, Ken Aldred said:

Long article, but eventually gets to the point, of Lee vs Kirby as primary creator, which is always an ongoing, partisan debate.

I've read enough of Lee's work without Kirby and Kirby's work without Lee to believe that it was a synergy.  Probably a bit of time and place as well.

[Black_Adam]

Haven't read the article, but my take has always been that Fantastic Four #1 in 1961 was the genesis of the Marvel universe as we now know it and I think it is generally agreed that the original FF were a reworked version of the Challengers of the Unknown, created by Kirby for DC in 1957. Knowing this, I believe it must have been Kirby who took the idea to Lee for the new team, not the other way around, so I give JK credit for being the impetus behind the early MCU though, of course, his ideas wouldn't have gone anywhere without Stan's monumental assistance!

[F For Fake]

We've been through this many times.

Lee and Kirby = FF, Hulk, X-Men, etc

Kirby without Lee = Fourth World, Demon, Kamandi, etc.

Lee without Kirby = Uh....Ravage 2099? Stripperella? :cough:

[comicginger1789]

Is it bad that I don’t think any of it happens without both? Kirby had a lot of ideas and took a lot of vague ideas and turned them into the visual history we know. Stan contributed ideas too but without his persona to drive the company, I wonder if Marvel would have survived like it has. 

[Namtak]

Well back then they just throwing things out and it was a masterpiece but for a marvel universe id say Roy Thomas was the one to explore and really make it a cohérent universe even created a second earth ,stan lee wanted everything in new York and make fun that it was probably happening for real.thomas was the one for marvel universe.

[Blastaar]

Belichick -  Stan Lee

Brady - Jack Kirby

So...Kirby

[Garystar]

Wasn’t it Martin Goodman who suggested a Superhero team because DC were having success with JLA. The Marvel Vault reproduces Stan Lee’s original --script which he gave to Jack Kirby from which Jack produced FF #1.

My take is that without Goodman there would have been no Marvel universe, without Stan Lee there would be no Marvel universe, without Jack Kirby there would have been a Fantastic Four comic but it would have been so poor it wouldn’t have lasted long and there would be no Marvel universe.  

Edited February 10, 2021 by Garystar

[the blob]

2 hours ago, F For Fake said:

We've been through this many times.

Lee and Kirby = FF, Hulk, X-Men, etc

Kirby without Lee = Fourth World, Demon, Kamandi, etc.

Lee without Kirby = Uh....Ravage 2099? Stripperella? :cough:

Didn't Lee create Spiderman and DD each with other another artist (Ditko/Heck). I know Kirby was on all the covers and had some input on DD, but that was after the fact, no? Fact is, on his own Kirby created some visually exotic stuff and interesting big picture stuff/characters, but i never found them particularly readable. Scripts do matter, as evidenced by the terrible stuff DC was writing in the early days of Marvel. 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by the blob

[Buzzetta]

The publisher.  Everyone else was work for hire. 
 

Oh yeah... and, “Joe”

[bc]

To me, the "Marvel Universe" is about the characters and the continuity of the stories between titles. Yes, they were just comic books, but once they started sharing common locations, themes, history and subplots, they wove a compelling narrative that seemed real enough for readers to associate with long-term. The characters didn't live in Metropolis or Gotham City, they were from New York state and NYC, the Hulk's origin is in New Mexico - places a kid could actually find on a map. 

Once they started actively cross referencing current plots to earlier comics, the Universe became solidified.

From the article:

"To live in the world of the X-Men, moreover, was to live in the larger Marvel Universe: footnotes in Uncanny X-Men No. 6, “Sub-Mariner Joins the Evil Mutants!,” directed readers to Fantastic Four No. 27 and Avengers No. 3. Lee and Kirby and their co-workers devised what Riesman calls “a massive latticework of stories,” in which any character could meet any other; fans could project themselves into it, too."

I didn't start reading comics until the very early '70's, but seeing those references like "* It happened waaaayyy back in TTA51!"  at the bottom of the panel turned me into a back issue collector - I wanted to know what they were talking about and sought them out as my allowance/birthday money permitted. The Marvel Universe created a lengthy continuity/history that I could experience and enjoy all the way back to it's birth.

-bc

[shadroch]

3 hours ago, F For Fake said:

We've been through this many times.

Lee and Kirby = FF, Hulk, X-Men, etc

Kirby without Lee = Fourth World, Demon, Kamandi, etc.

Lee without Kirby = Uh....Ravage 2099? Stripperella? :cough:

I think of what the Fourth World would have been if it had been a Kirby/Lee production, and what heights Kirby could have soared to instead of stuff like Demon or Kamandi, neither of which I think are worthy of his legacy.

Lee= Eisenhower, Kirby= Patton.

 

 

 

 

[Mercury Man]

Sometimes it's just the merging of the two that brings out the greatness.

Lee & Kirby

Laurel & Hardy

Paul McCartney & John Lennon

Tom Brady & Bill Belichi.....(wait maybe not that last one).

 

[mattn792]

greggy 

[F For Fake]

2 hours ago, the blob said:

Didn't Lee create Spiderman and DD each with other another artist (Ditko/Heck). I know Kirby was on all the covers and had some input on DD, but that was after the fact, no? Fact is, on his own Kirby created some visually exotic stuff and interesting big picture stuff/characters, but i never found them particularly readable. Scripts do matter, as evidenced by the terrible stuff DC was writing in the early days of Marvel. 

 

Perhaps at the time Lee's scripting dazzled in comparison to the dull stuff at DC, but reading them today, they're just as stilted and comical as anything else from the period. I think Silver Surfer still holds up well from a scripting standpoint, as well as Thor, which was seemingly tailor-made for Stan's overwrought, florid speech. But for the most part, Silver Age Marvel stands out, to me, due to the big ideas, the imagination, and visceral impact. And to that end, I give Kirby, Ditko and co the lion's share of the credit. But this really is just personal preference we're talking about at this point.

To be serious for a moment, I really DO think Lee played a big part in all if it, and it really was a collaborative effort that made it all work. But my personal distaste for Stan's glory-hogging leads me to button-push in threads like these, hence the 

[KCOComics]

First off, this is probably the single most debated topic in comics and yet I enjoy it every time. 

When you go back to the GA it wasn't uncommon for editors and writers to put their names on everything.  Charles Biro, for example, would be credited with writing and drawing a ton of work for MLJ and Lev Gleason when in reality he was just the "artistic supervisor".  His contemporaries said he never wrote anything besides his name across the front of every comic. 

No one stopped him from putting his name everywhere because he was the boss and most artists never thought anyone would seriously care about comics. 

I think you saw some of that happening at Marvel with Lee taking more credit than he deserved... After all, comics had been declining for a decade and there weren't allot of people betting on the "Marvel Universe".  

Now, I don't subscribe to the theory that Lee was nothing more than a marketer and Kirby was the driving force behind Marvel. I think Lee came up with a lot of great ideas and Kirby brought them to life. They needed each other. Even if you want to say Lee was nothing more than a marketer obviously the marketing worked. 

I think Lee deserves a tremendous amount of credit for the Marvel Universe. He ran the company, he put a name and face behind Marvel and created a personal connection that competitors lacked. I grew up in the 90s and would recognize Stan Lee before I would have recognized George Bush or Bill Clinton. 

But I also don't think Stan Lee was writing 15 titles a month and coming up with new and original stories and characters constantly.  That took a team of talented people and Kirby was front and center. 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by KCOComics