PROBATION DISCUSSIONS
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14 hours ago, agamoto said:

Columbo Detective GIF - Columbo Detective Confused GIFs

Oh, just one more thing...

Lol, probation huh? You guys are a hoot! Let me restate this as clearly and as succinctly as I can.

1. Seller puts some 30 or so books up for sale worth $15K or so. Plenty of rich detail provided. Links to pics, current GoCollect and GPA FMV's, free CGC grader notes, links to the census reports, etc. Arguably, above average content. 

2. Shopper comes along and says he's "Interested, maybe"  in some unspecified books and whether the books are pressed or not 

3. Seller says they are all pressed, some better than others and asks which ones he's interested in.

4. Shopper replies indicating he's "thinking about" a bundle deal of Avengers 8 and Hulk 141

5. Seller pulls those books off the shelf. Knows for sure one is pressed, and determines one of them actually isn't.

6. Seller responds to Shopper telling him one's pressed, the other isn't and the Hulk book that isn't pressed is going to be removed from sale. 

7. Shopper disregards this and now suddenly has gone from thinking about a sweet Avengers 8 and Hulk 141 bundle to wanting that 9.2 unpressed Hulk book, the one he's always wanted, but was just told was being pulled from sale in the prior message. He tells the Seller he wants that book. Not the Avengers 8, not the bundle. Just the Hulk. 

8. A minute after that, the Shopper puts a "take" in the thread too. He would explain later that he did this because the Seller hadn't updated the thread yet to indicate it was being pulled and he thought it was form of sales pressure tactic. 

9. The Seller returns to the forum 15 minutes later and responds to the Shopper's PM clarifying the book is indeed being pulled. 

10. The Seller updates the ad to indicate it's pulled and the Shopper posts a "well that's that" message with a frown. 

11. The Seller see this and offers the Shopper a great deal. First crack at the book with an additional 10% off with the value pegged at present FMV @ grade, even if it goes up in value.

12. The Shopper enters a general discussion thread to publicly grumble about the take he has just been denied.

13. That's apparently all it takes for the brotherhood members to engage in the sales thread, letting the seller know how things work 'round here, and how he oughta just respect the take or lose reputation/privileges.

14. The Seller notices one of the sales thread comments references another thread, reads the content and time stamps there and recognizes immediately that the Shopper not only failed to accurately describe the manner in which events took place, he also provides embellished reasoning in an apparent effort to make himself look like a victim. 

15. The Seller tries in vain in both threads to represent the facts as they actually were. To show that the Shopper wasn't a victim and was aware of the book being removed from sale before trying to take it. The entire situation begins to resemble a shakedown by proxy, en masse. No one gives a . No one wants to read his walls of text. Several point to the Seller's rules that say "no matter what" as if that's some sort of waiver that dismisses a shopper being purposefully manipulative.

16. The Seller refuses to back down or cave in, which only earns him the permanent ire of more and more board-members by refusing to "do the right thing." or posting 1000 word diatribe position papers providing context that go completely unread anyway. Facts don't matter and perception is everything. This... is 2020.

17. Frustrated with the community in general, The Seller closes the thread, never to sell here again, but quite thankful to those who did purchase the $15,000 or so in books. Thanks, everyone, you know where to find me.   

Still with me? Probably not. I apologize to those of you who never made it past Stan Lee thought-bubble reading level. I'm sure you hate walls of text. I don't especially like writing them either, but oh well. If only one person comes to understand and appreciate my perspective, it's worth it.

Epilogue:

They say a guilty conscious always confesses, whether they are conscious of their crimes or not. You have that confession in the general discussion board when Miraclemet describes how and why he put his take down when he did. He's been burnt before, you see, lost out on other sales from buyers who changed their minds when, as he describes it, they are presented with his low offers for bundles of books, for less than Miraclemet perceives the Seller had hoped for. That's why he put the take down after I told him it wasn't for sale... He did so specifically to pre-empt the possibility from what he described above from happening to him again, despite not actually having any offer made on a book(s) he said he was interested in, maybe. 

That's his excuse folks, a deliberate step to force me into selling that particular book to him when he learned I was going to take it down. All this could have ended as quickly and as painlessly as it started when I reiterated my desire to pull it assuring him that it wasn't some sort pressure tactic. That would be quite a ridiculously stupid pressure tactic and is really a nonsensical explanation. He did not remove or rescind his take. He didn't even make any offer, despite that take. No, instead, he went grumbling about what happened to the brotherhood. I suspect he's been around more than long enough to know what happens when you bump the brotherhood's hive. I'll bet if I went back through that thread, I'd find more instances of the brethren being called into service in such a manner, right?

Well, I'm not about to allow anyone to extort property from me, for any reason. Ostracize me all you'd like, I don't care.  I guess you can all buy safely in the knowledge that the next time someone lets you know they're going to pull a book from sale, something you might be thinking you're interested in, maybe, you can always force that seller to sell it to you, for at least asking price, by dropping your take down even after they've told you it's being pulled. Hey, if they don't like it, you can call in the cavalry with a simple grumble.

The saddest part in all this is the number of comments I've read along the lines of how my reputation has been destroyed here, "all over a matter of, at most, a possible few hundred bucks." or some variant.

Lol, god almighty, so what? It's a matter of PRINCIPLE. This world wouldn't be such a place if more people stood up for themselves and the truth. 

All of you sticklers for the rules apparently have such blind allegiance to them that you can't perceive when people may actually be GAMING them to their benefit, walking away unscathed if the resultant tornado of peer pressure doens't work out in their favor.  

If at this point, you STILL don't get it, then I'm absolutely, positively in the wrong place and amongst the wrong people. 

Cliff notes version :blahblah:

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3 hours ago, Fan Boy said:

Good. You’re not the only seller who has the keys someone might like to buy. There are plenty other GREAT sellers here in this forums.  Compare to other sites ... I consider to be one of best places to find unique and cool vintage comics. As long we understood the rules and worked with them ... after the first time onwards, it get better as many sellers tweaked and fine tuned their sale threads, more smoother ( and lot more fun). We get along well, even made some friendships and relationships between many of us here. 
 

You, sir, is welcome to take your long-winded superior rants with you and take your “chip on shoulder” with you. You just don’t get the gist ... missed the point. Good luck, I have no regrets about you at all. Bye. 

This, exactly this.

Something didn't smell right to me even before this. I had a DM all typed out with an offer on the ASM #10 and at the last minute, I deleted it and decided to wait to see the direction the thread took.  While I do not doubt that the transaction would have been followed through on, I would rather spend that money on other sellers here that understand the rules and/or that I've done deals with hear in the past.

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14 minutes ago, universal soldier said:

Cliff notes version :blahblah:

We’re all meanie heads.

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1 hour ago, universal soldier said:

Cliff notes version :blahblah:

That was as succinctly as he could put it!

:makepoint:            o.O       :boo:

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@agamoto I don't think what occurred is PL worthy because arguably the buyer was informed of the book being pulled prior to posting the Take (though it is not definitive and it would have been made definitive if you had revised the listing). However, if a 3rd party who was not aware of seller's intentions had posted the Take prior to seller revising the listing then seller would be required under the rules to complete the sale. To me the bad action is the seller's admission that he would NOT have honored such a sale to a 3rd party.

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I would like to nominate RICK STARR to this list for violation of board rules (failing to honor a sale after I claimed a book in his sales thread and sent a payment by check, and two weeks later telling me he decided to keep the book). 

The freeze dried version goes something like this:

I claimed a book (Blue Bolt 113) in his October 11 sales thread by a "Take" in the thread for the full listed price. John (aka Rick Starr) sent me a message telling me congratulations, and that there was "loads of interest" in that specific book. He even offered me additional L.B. Cole books privately after the fact. I mailed a check on October 14, and when it did not arrive in a timely fashion, I offered to mail a replacement. John told me to wait, which I did. After numerous communications, the check did not arrive this past Saturday and I once again offered to mail a replacement. I saw that numerous other books that were claimed in that sales thread had already made it to a prominent dealer (highgradecomics.com) and that he had already posted them for sale on his website, yet John claimed he hadn't even received my check, which seemed odd but I gave him the benefit of the doubt...

John told me to give it a few more days. In the meantime, I passed on several other opportunities (including the recent Heritage auction) because I *thought* I had already spent my limit on this wonderful book. Finally, on October 26, John wrote me to say that my check still had yet to arrive, but he was fine with it because, out of all the dozens of books in his thread,  he decided to keep that one specific book. This, after waiting nearly two weeks for my check to arrive, if in fact it was ever delayed in the first place. 

                                                  ***If you don't want to read a novel, scroll to the end to see the seller's response in bold***

 

****The (very) long version:

John (aka RICK STARR) on October 26:

Well, I am sorry still no check in today's mail. Actually, it is just as well for me because I have decided to keep the book. I know you aren't going to like it and, no I do not have another offer from another buyer. just looking at this great cover and asking myself, why did I decide to sell it in the first place. My sales thread was very successful and I do not need the money. So, don't think ill of me, I am a collector not a dealer looking for more money. If by some chance your check does arrive, I will notify you and let me know what to do with it. Take care,    John

 

My response to John on October 27:

When I first came upon your thread, it appeared as though no one had put in a single bid on anything within the first few hours. Being a small time collector, I was agonizing over several books before I decided on the Blue Bolt 113. 

After I declared "Take" there was a flurry of activity, after which many, if not all, of the books were scooped up. 

You later told me there was "loads of interest" in that one book, and even offered me other books in addition to that one before posting them on the thread. At no time did you even hint at the fact that you were thinking of keeping that one book.

I mailed you a payment within a day (October 14) and emailed you to inform you that it was on its way. I know the mail is slow, but I am suspicious of your claim that the check never arrived and it just so happens that you're fine with that because you decided to keep the book. 

In the meantime, I see that highgradecomics.com has not only received five or six books from the very same thread, but has already posted them for sale. For some reason, I feel as though you wouldn't have reneged on the Blue Bolt if a big time collector/dealer purchased it, but for little old me you feel okay doing it.

In the meantime, it is October 26. You advised me to keep waiting to see if the check arrived. I wanted to make sure I got it to you on time, and offered more than once to send a replacement check. You advised me to keep waiting.

 

Again, at no time did you suggest that you were having second thoughts about selling it, and apparently had no second thoughts on your other books from that thread. In the meantime, I have passed on several other books in recent sales threads, as well as the Heritage auction, since I thought I had money tied up in this book. So, in a sense, I got screwed twice. First, on the Blue Bolt 113, and again by letting other books pass that I would love to have bid on.

 

 Let's recap:

1. You posted numerous books for sale, and told me there was "loads of interest" on this one, in spite of the fact that your thread had been posted for hours before the first person (me) purchased anything. Later that day, buyers came in droves and snapped up the books in a frenzy.

2. I send a check on October 14, and after a week or so you claim you never received it and you instruct me to give it more time. I know the mail has been slow (as you point out) and so I agree to wait...

3. After several messages exchanged between us in relation to the payment, on Oct. 21 I offer to send a replacement check, but you again state that I should give you more time.

4.  On October 25, I again offer to mail a replacement check, and you instruct me to wait until Monday.

5. On October 25, I see that Highgradecomics.com has posted 5 to 6 books from your sales thread. It seems strange that he's already received his books and listed them for sale, while you have yet to even receive my payment, but I give you the benefit of the doubt.

5. On Monday October 26, you tell me the check has yet to arrive, but you're fine with that because you decided to keep the book.

You are correct that I am unhappy John. I feel as though I was taken for a ride, and I do not know that I can even trust you enough to believe that my check never got there.

If payment was an issue, I would have either mailed another check or sent an instant payment. It seems as though everyone else received their purchases, so the only book that you had seller's remorse on was the first book to go in your sales thread, the same one that had "loads of interest". All the other Cole books, including those you offered to me privately, appear to have been sold, most of them to a prominent dealer.

Again, being a small time collector, I had to make tough decisions and let other books pass as I eagerly awaited this book that anyone could have claimed in the thread, and I wonder if your decision to renege would not have happened had a big time dealer or collector been the one to "take" the book instead of me.

You have some great books, and we conducted a private sale this past summer, so you are also losing a customer here, although I don't think you give a bleep about that. I suppose my only recourse is to nominate you for the naughty list, so here goes...

 

John/Rick Starr's Oct 27 response to my complaint above:

 

Wow! As I said to you, I am keeping the book for myself. I have collected, traded and sold books since 1977. I have an EXCELLENT reputation with many other collectors and dealers. Yes, [I omitted the name of the other buyer] bought some books from me and what he decides what to do with them is his business. SO, there is NOTHING fishy going on, I recent that! It's MY BOOK, if I chose to keep it, its my prerogative. I have a 1256 positive (100%) feedback on Ebay. I don't what else to say. I DO NOT have your check!!! Sorry, you are upset. It's just a comic book,

 

 

Edited by thewritestuff

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4 hours ago, thewritestuff said:

I would like to nominate RICK STARR to this list for violation of board rules (failing to honor a sale after I claimed a book in his sales thread and sent a payment by check, and two weeks later telling me he decided to keep the book). 

The freeze dried version goes something like this:

I claimed a book (Blue Bolt 113) in his October 11 sales thread by a "Take" in the thread for the full listed price. John (aka Rick Starr) sent me a message telling me congratulations, and that there was "loads of interest" in that specific book. He even offered me additional L.B. Cole books privately after the fact. I mailed a check on October 14, and when it did not arrive in a timely fashion, I offered to mail a replacement. John told me to wait, which I did. After numerous communications, the check did not arrive this past Saturday and I once again offered to mail a replacement. I saw that numerous other books that were claimed in that sales thread had already made it to a prominent dealer (highgradecomics.com) and that he had already posted them for sale on his website, yet John claimed he hadn't even received my check, which seemed odd but I gave him the benefit of the doubt...

John told me to give it a few more days. In the meantime, I passed on several other opportunities (including the recent Heritage auction) because I *thought* I had already spent my limit on this wonderful book. Finally, on October 26, John wrote me to say that my check still had yet to arrive, but he was fine with it because, out of all the dozens of books in his thread,  he decided to keep that one specific book. This, after waiting nearly two weeks for my check to arrive, if in fact it was ever delayed in the first place. 

                                                  ***If you don't want to read a novel, scroll to the end to see the seller's response in bold***

 

****The (very) long version:

John (aka RICK STARR) on October 26:

Well, I am sorry still no check in today's mail. Actually, it is just as well for me because I have decided to keep the book. I know you aren't going to like it and, no I do not have another offer from another buyer. just looking at this great cover and asking myself, why did I decide to sell it in the first place. My sales thread was very successful and I do not need the money. So, don't think ill of me, I am a collector not a dealer looking for more money. If by some chance your check does arrive, I will notify you and let me know what to do with it. Take care,    John

 

My response to John on October 27:

When I first came upon your thread, it appeared as though no one had put in a single bid on anything within the first few hours. Being a small time collector, I was agonizing over several books before I decided on the Blue Bolt 113. 

After I declared "Take" there was a flurry of activity, after which many, if not all, of the books were scooped up. 

You later told me there was "loads of interest" in that one book, and even offered me other books in addition to that one before posting them on the thread. At no time did you even hint at the fact that you were thinking of keeping that one book.

I mailed you a payment within a day (October 14) and emailed you to inform you that it was on its way. I know the mail is slow, but I am suspicious of your claim that the check never arrived and it just so happens that you're fine with that because you decided to keep the book. 

In the meantime, I see that highgradecomics.com has not only received five or six books from the very same thread, but has already posted them for sale. For some reason, I feel as though you wouldn't have reneged on the Blue Bolt if a big time collector/dealer purchased it, but for little old me you feel okay doing it.

In the meantime, it is October 26. You advised me to keep waiting to see if the check arrived. I wanted to make sure I got it to you on time, and offered more than once to send a replacement check. You advised me to keep waiting.

 

Again, at no time did you suggest that you were having second thoughts about selling it, and apparently had no second thoughts on your other books from that thread. In the meantime, I have passed on several other books in recent sales threads, as well as the Heritage auction, since I thought I had money tied up in this book. So, in a sense, I got screwed twice. First, on the Blue Bolt 113, and again by letting other books pass that I would love to have bid on.

 

 Let's recap:

1. You posted numerous books for sale, and told me there was "loads of interest" on this one, in spite of the fact that your thread had been posted for hours before the first person (me) purchased anything. Later that day, buyers came in droves and snapped up the books in a frenzy.

2. I send a check on October 14, and after a week or so you claim you never received it and you instruct me to give it more time. I know the mail has been slow (as you point out) and so I agree to wait...

3. After several messages exchanged between us in relation to the payment, on Oct. 21 I offer to send a replacement check, but you again state that I should give you more time.

4.  On October 25, I again offer to mail a replacement check, and you instruct me to wait until Monday.

5. On October 25, I see that Highgradecomics.com has posted 5 to 6 books from your sales thread. It seems strange that he's already received his books and listed them for sale, while you have yet to even receive my payment, but I give you the benefit of the doubt.

5. On Monday October 26, you tell me the check has yet to arrive, but you're fine with that because you decided to keep the book.

You are correct that I am unhappy John. I feel as though I was taken for a ride, and I do not know that I can even trust you enough to believe that my check never got there.

If payment was an issue, I would have either mailed another check or sent an instant payment. It seems as though everyone else received their purchases, so the only book that you had seller's remorse on was the first book to go in your sales thread, the same one that had "loads of interest". All the other Cole books, including those you offered to me privately, appear to have been sold, most of them to a prominent dealer.

Again, being a small time collector, I had to make tough decisions and let other books pass as I eagerly awaited this book that anyone could have claimed in the thread, and I wonder if your decision to renege would not have happened had a big time dealer or collector been the one to "take" the book instead of me.

You have some great books, and we conducted a private sale this past summer, so you are also losing a customer here, although I don't think you give a bleep about that. I suppose my only recourse is to nominate you for the naughty list, so here goes...

 

John/Rick Starr's Oct 27 response to my complaint above:

 

Wow! As I said to you, I am keeping the book for myself. I have collected, traded and sold books since 1977. I have an EXCELLENT reputation with many other collectors and dealers. Yes, [I omitted the name of the other buyer] bought some books from me and what he decides what to do with them is his business. SO, there is NOTHING fishy going on, I recent that! It's MY BOOK, if I chose to keep it, its my prerogative. I have a 1256 positive (100%) feedback on Ebay. I don't what else to say. I DO NOT have your check!!! Sorry, you are upset. It's just a comic book,

 

 

Doesn't sound good at all.  It would be nice to hear from John.

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I remember the book.  It was a beauty, and almost bought it myself.

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So when the check finally arrives, is @RICK STARR going to tear it up? 

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There's been a couple times over the years where I've posted something for sale and if it hasn't sold in a day or whatever I've thought better about it and pulled the book from the sales thread. However, once someone takes a book then that's a done deal, especially once payment is sent. 

That's a renege! 

81d123c6-e8c5-417d-a972-422ba81520e8_screenshot.jpg

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This is not an indictment of Rick Starr.  I have dealt with him but haven't heard anything negative in my time here so please take this as a general comment.

I personally dislike paying by check. I know it saves the seller the PP fees but I always worry about the check being lost in the mail (even more so now) or I guess for a seller to receive it and say they never received it as a bit of seller's remorse so they can cancel the transaction.  

Plus cancelling a check is what $20 or $30 (I think somewhere around there is what my bank charges). 

 

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9 hours ago, thewritestuff said:

John/Rick Starr's Oct 27 response to my complaint above:

 

Wow! As I said to you, I am keeping the book for myself. I have collected, traded and sold books since 1977. I have an EXCELLENT reputation with many other collectors and dealers. Yes, [I omitted the name of the other buyer] bought some books from me and what he decides what to do with them is his business. SO, there is NOTHING fishy going on, I recent that! It's MY BOOK, if I chose to keep it, its my prerogative. I have a 1256 positive (100%) feedback on Ebay. I don't what else to say. I DO NOT have your check!!! Sorry, you are upset. It's just a comic book,

 

 

Browbeating someone with your resume is never a good look, especially when you're reneging on a deal.

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8 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

So if it's "just a comic book", why not just sell it to him?  I think people are going stir crazy this month...:(

 

..century...

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8 hours ago, telerites said:

This is not an indictment of Rick Starr.  I have dealt with him but haven't heard anything negative in my time here so please take this as a general comment.

I personally dislike paying by check. I know it saves the seller the PP fees but I always worry about the check being lost in the mail (even more so now) or I guess for a seller to receive it and say they never received it as a bit of seller's remorse so they can cancel the transaction.  

Plus cancelling a check is what $20 or $30 (I think somewhere around there is what my bank charges). 

 

I'll take this opportunity to plug Zelle as a great alternative to personal check/money order, if you're dealing with someone you know and/or trust.  If you haven't used it, its basically a direct, and free, bank account to bank account transfer network that can be used by customers of any participating bank (I'm with Fifth Third for example).  

I've used it to receive payment without issue on a couple of occasions.

Only potential drawback - the transaction isn't reversible.  So again, know and/or trust is key in a Zelle transaction.

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17 hours ago, thewritestuff said:

 

John/Rick Starr's Oct 27 response to my complaint above:

 

Wow! As I said to you, I am keeping the book for myself. I have collected, traded and sold books since 1977. I have an EXCELLENT reputation with many other collectors and dealers. Yes, [I omitted the name of the other buyer] bought some books from me and what he decides what to do with them is his business. SO, there is NOTHING fishy going on, I recent that! It's MY BOOK, if I chose to keep it, its my prerogative. I have a 1256 positive (100%) feedback on Ebay. I don't what else to say. I DO NOT have your check!!! Sorry, you are upset. It's just a comic book,

 

 

That reputation is now one of someone who doesn't honor a deal. (thumbsu

It is true that it is his prerogative to keep the book but it is also your @thewritestuff option to put him on the Probation List for failing to complete an agreed-to transaction.

You should start a new thread officially nominating him. Normally you have to wait 30 days from the commencement of a transaction; however, because he has informed you that he will no longer be selling you the book I don't think you have to wait the 30 days.

Seems like an open and shut case to me. :rulez:

Edited by Red84

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20 minutes ago, Red84 said:

That reputation is now one of someone who doesn't honor a deal. (thumbsu

It is true that it is his prerogative to keep the book but it is also your @thewritestuff option to put him on the Probation List for failing to complete an agreed-to transaction.

You should start a new thread officially nominating him. Normally you have to wait 30 days from the commencement of a transaction; however, because he has informed you that he will no longer be selling you the book I don't think you have to wait the 30 days.

Seems like an open and shut case to me. :rulez:

I thought this was the official place to nominate someone 🙀

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