eBay The eBay Official eBay Thread eBay 33 33

[the blob]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But none of this is the issue. The issue is "does a buyer forfeit their right of rejection/revocation of acceptance if they send the book to a third party to have its condition appraised."

The answer is a resounding "no", for obvious reasons.

And you cannot sell "as is" when the buyer cannot inspect the item...or have it inspected...prior to purchase.

Ok, we are discussing different things. I am talking 6, 9, 12 months down the road. As a practical matter "as is" is useless when ebay, PayPal, and credit card payments are involved and you are within the timeframe to return an item or file a dispute, regardless of the UCC or contract law. As an ethical, not legal, matter a seller should try to do the right thing, work something reasonable out.

Edited February 11, 2019 by the blob

[the blob]

As for the notion that once you send it to cgc all bets are off, that seems a bit much.with that said, demanding a return of grading fees and a full refund is also a bit much.

[Poka]

Bit annoyed with eBay today.

i am gonna relist a books for a 2nd time within a day

1. Buyer makes an offer. 30 min later I accept. 1 min later I get a cancellation request - thrill seeker

2. I relist - a few hours later a 2nd buyer make offer same price as first buyer which I accept. 10 min later I get this message

3. Relisting again.

[boatfund]

So I've been looking for a decent Scooby Doo #1 (it's on my saved searches) - saw this one up on the bay for a starting bid of $800.00 (thought about bidding but didn't). It goes for $800 to the single bidder.  Private bids.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOOBY-DOO-1-CGC-6-5-WHITE-COMIC-1970-1ST-SCOOBY-DOO-AND-THE-GANG-GOLD-KEY-/132939340576?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

2 days later seller puts same book up again $50 higher.   GPA has already recorded the $800 sale.  Maybe the same buyer can buy it again. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOOBY-DOO-1-CGC-6-5-WHITE-COMIC-1970-1ST-SCOOBY-DOO-AND-THE-GANG/132949696122?hash=item1ef46b5e7a:g:1CUAAOSw-hRcYc4c:rk:2:pf:0

The seller can thank me later for the publicity. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by boatfund
broken link

[Ride the Tiger]

I believe sellers should have the right under certain circumstances to sell something "as is". You see people selling old cars, old cameras, old PCs all marked "as is". If you see this you should use extreme caution. The seller is telling you outright I am no expert and cannot guarantee total satisfaction to whomever buys this product. Yes I'm sure that claim of ignorance is abused but you can't take that away from everyone because of a few bad apples. There is risk in everything these days. Roll the dice and hope for the best but don't always blame it on the other guy if things don't go your way.

[skypinkblu]

1 hour ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I believe sellers should have the right under certain circumstances to sell something "as is". You see people selling old cars, old cameras, old PCs all marked "as is". If you see this you should use extreme caution. The seller is telling you outright I am no expert and cannot guarantee total satisfaction to whomever buys this product. Yes I'm sure that claim of ignorance is abused but you can't take that away from everyone because of a few bad apples. There is risk in everything these days. Roll the dice and hope for the best but don't always blame it on the other guy if things don't go your way.

I have mixed feelings about "as is". First of all, I know someone from long ago on the eBay boards, who had a lot of comic book experience, but actually started new IDs so it would APPEAR that he was new and knew nothing. He said that he got better bids that way, that totally turned me off. So I rarely will look at something that is AS IS or unless I ask a zillion questions and they answer them all.  Many times you can tell that the person knows grading, they are just being people I don't want to deal with.

I think I have a decent handle on grading anything under a 9.2, but I am in no way confident that I'm always right. On  rare occasions I  don't offer a grade, but I try to  put in a good description (and the no grade would be because there is something odd about the book).I'm human, I know I can miss things, so I always offer returns. It's a risk for me, sure...but I feel more comfortable that way because people can make mistakes. I have no reason to try to trick someone, I'm not making a living when I sell my books, it really is a hobby for me, but even if it were not, I'd do the same thing because I think it's the right thing to do. I don't want buyers to be unhappy or feel tricked.

That's why I even offer returns on slabs here, but I feel that the buyer has to be somewhat diligent and timely.

If someone buys something and wants to send it to CGC for an "expert" opinion, that's fine, but they'd have to do it pretty quickly or tell me before purchasing that they needed more time, HERE or on eBay.  

However, even with my policy, I've had very very few returns. Between here and eBay I'd say less than 10 in almost 20 years, and about 1/2 were my mistakes, so I really see no reason not to take returns if you take the time to describe things and you know you are trying to be fair.

Then on the other hand, it's been very tempting to sell stuff on Clink or one of the other auction houses because they don't take returns and I don't have to worry about it, so I've listed a few books there.

 

[Ride the Tiger]

3 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

I have mixed feelings about "as is". First of all, I know someone from long ago on the eBay boards, who had a lot of comic book experience, but actually started new IDs so it would APPEAR that he was new and knew nothing. He said that he got better bids that way, that totally turned me off. So I rarely will look at something that is AS IS or unless I ask a zillion questions and they answer them all.  Many times you can tell that the person knows grading, they are just being people I don't want to deal with.

I think I have a decent handle on grading anything under a 9.2, but I am in no way confident that I'm always right. On  rare occasions I  don't offer a grade, but I try to  put in a good description (and the no grade would be because there is something odd about the book).I'm human, I know I can miss things, so I always offer returns. It's a risk for me, sure...but I feel more comfortable that way because people can make mistakes. I have no reason to try to trick someone, I'm not making a living when I sell my books, it really is a hobby for me, but even if it were not, I'd do the same thing because I think it's the right thing to do. I don't want buyers to be unhappy or feel tricked.

That's why I even offer returns on slabs here, but I feel that the buyer has to be somewhat diligent and timely.

If someone buys something and wants to send it to CGC for an "expert" opinion, that's fine, but they'd have to do it pretty quickly or tell me before purchasing that they needed more time, HERE or on eBay.  

However, even with my policy, I've had very very few returns. Between here and eBay I'd say less than 10 in almost 20 years, and about 1/2 were my mistakes, so I really see no reason not to take returns if you take the time to describe things and you know you are trying to be fair.

Then on the other hand, it's been very tempting to sell stuff on Clink or one of the other auction houses because they don't take returns and I don't have to worry about it, so I've listed a few books there.

 

Yes there will always be people that find a way to earn something they don't deserve. I know there are many scammers out there . Since the beginning of time people have been finding ways to cheat people. These people will never go away. Even if you make every rule to protect the honest buyer,  the scammer will still find a way. Just like all the millions spent to keep information safe on websites and "the cloud". Some hacker still finds a way around that mess. I  believe we should be educating buyers rather than putting restrictions on sellers. Otherwise what's next? We start knocking on doors of people that had a garage sale because the mixer they sold you broke after a few weeks? Learn how to buy. If it seems to good to be true then it probably isn't. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 hours ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I believe sellers should have the right under certain circumstances to sell something "as is". You see people selling old cars, old cameras, old PCs all marked "as is". If you see this you should use extreme caution. The seller is telling you outright I am no expert and cannot guarantee total satisfaction to whomever buys this product. Yes I'm sure that claim of ignorance is abused but you can't take that away from everyone because of a few bad apples. There is risk in everything these days. Roll the dice and hope for the best but don't always blame it on the other guy if things don't go your way.

"As is" does not negate the right of the buyer to inspect the item prior to purchase or acceptance. "As is" only means the buyer has no recourse if something faulty happens or is discovered after the buyer has had the chance to inspect. 

"As is" isn't a magical phrase that allows anyone to sell anything, in any condition, without any responsibility whatsoever, despite what many would like. It does not allow a seller to misrepresent an item (deliberately or not), nor does it allow a seller to engage in fraud. In the phrase "as is", the operative word is "is", meaning as the item actually exists; it doesn't mean "as the seller wants or wishes it to be", and it certainly doesn't mean a buyer is prohibited from inspecting the item(s) or having it/them inspected upon receipt.

Sellers are free to sell items "as is" any time they wish...provided the buyer has the right to inspect the item for themselves. No need for guarantees.

Where "as is" is applicable to online sales is after the buyer receives the item(s), inspects it/them, and accepts them, either by notifying the seller, or after a reasonable amount of time has passed and the buyer has not notified the seller of defect. If you buy a car "as is" on eBay, for example...and you can...and the car arrives, you inspect it (or have it inspected), and you accept it, and two months later, you throw a rod and lose the engine, then you have no recourse. That's the way it goes. If, however, you receive the car, and there is a material defect which the seller did not note...you can reject it, regardless of it being sold "as is."

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 2/11/2019 at 8:34 AM, the blob said:

As for the notion that once you send it to cgc all bets are off, that seems a bit much.

It does.

On 2/11/2019 at 8:34 AM, the blob said:

with that said, demanding a return of grading fees and a full refund is also a bit much.

But nobody made that argument in this discussion.

However...the UCC does provide that those fees may be recovered from the seller, depending on context.

[Ride the Tiger]

Devils advocate. What if some well known user bought a set of comics from someone and it was a total steal. Guy sold box of comics for $50 bucks. Didnt know what he had. Turns out the value was in the thousands. How do we all react?

[RockMyAmadeus]

38 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I  believe we should be educating buyers rather than putting restrictions on sellers. Otherwise what's next? We start knocking on doors of people that had a garage sale because the mixer they sold you broke after a few weeks? Learn how to buy. If it seems to good to be true then it probably isn't. 

Nobody has put any restrictions on sellers, or called for such. If the mixer is sold "as is", and the buyer did or could inspect it, and it breaks after a few weeks...oh well. That's the way it goes.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Ride the Tiger said:

Devils advocate. What if some well known user bought a set of comics from someone and it was a total steal. Guy sold box of comics for $50 bucks. Didnt know what he had. Turns out the value was in the thousands. How do we all react?

Those who are overly concerned with things being "equal" and "fair" (as they see those terms, of course) will likely be upset. But provided there was no fraud involved, kudos to the buyer for scoring a deal and knowing what he/she was looking at. That knowledge has value. 

What if a buyer sees a short box of Heathcliff comic books in VG condition, all priced at $100 each...spends thousands of dollars for a box that is "worth" about $50?

[Ride the Tiger]

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Those who are overly concerned with things being "equal" and "fair" (as they see those terms, of course) will likely be upset. But provided there was no fraud involved, kudos to the buyer for scoring a deal and knowing what he/she was looking at. That knowledge has value. 

What if a buyer sees a short box of Heathcliff comic books in VG condition, all priced at $100 each...spends thousands of dollars for a box that is "worth" about $50?

I'm not trying to put a right or wrong on every instance.  I just think that sometimes we get so wrapped up in ourselves as buyers. Are we protected every way possible from getting burned? What about the people that have given away expensive comics just because they were ignorant to what they had. As a society with a conscience shouldn't we want to protect that guy too? Or is it just all about the buyers?

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I'm not trying to put a right or wrong on every instance.  I just think that sometimes we get so wrapped up in ourselves as buyers. Are we protected every way possible from getting burned? What about the people that have given away expensive comics just because they were ignorant to what they had. As a society with a conscience shouldn't we want to protect that guy too? Or is it just all about the buyers?

I'm not disagreeing with you, even remotely. We don't need more rules and laws; we need fewer. 

This discussion is about the specific instance of suggesting that a buyer forfeits his right to return an item if he sends it to a professional appraiser. This discussion is not about protecting the buyer in any and every possible way. 

And the answer to your question about society is a firm "no", because not everyone has the same "conscience." You protect people from fraud...you do not protect people (adults) from themselves and their own ignorance, or they will never learn how to protect themselves.

[Ride the Tiger]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, even remotely. We don't need more rules and laws; we need fewer. 

This discussion is about the specific instance of suggesting that a buyer forfeits his right to return an item if he sends it to a professional appraiser. This discussion is not about protecting the buyer in any and every possible way. 

And the answer to your question about society is a firm "no", because not everyone has the same "conscience." You protect people from fraud...you do not protect people (adults) from themselves and their own ignorance, or they will never learn how to protect themselves.

I'm just bringing it up because I believe it should be fair for everyone. You will never get everyone on the same page but it's cool to hear all ideas. If we could just do the I wont screw you if you wont screw me the community would be a much better place.

[Mystafo]

What if the someone's a sweet, lovely old granny?  DISCRIMINATION!!!!!

 

 

 

 

...sorry, just goofin'.  Just new boot goofin'.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Mystafo said:

What if the someone's a sweet, lovely old granny?  DISCRIMINATION!!!!!

 

 

 

 

...sorry, just goofin'.  Just new boot goofin'.

My granny could kick your granny's heiny.

[Mystafo]

 I won't....nay, CAN"T accept this!!! 

Have-at-you, RMA granny!

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

"As is" does not negate the right of the buyer to inspect the item prior to purchase or acceptance. "As is" only means the buyer has no recourse if something faulty happens or is discovered after the buyer has had the chance to inspect. 

"As is" isn't a magical phrase that allows anyone to sell anything, in any condition, without any responsibility whatsoever, despite what many would like. It does not allow a seller to misrepresent an item (deliberately or not), nor does it allow a seller to engage in fraud. In the phrase "as is", the operative word is "is", meaning as the item actually exists; it doesn't mean "as the seller wants or wishes it to be", and it certainly doesn't mean a buyer is prohibited from inspecting the item(s) or having it/them inspected upon receipt.

Sellers are free to sell items "as is" any time they wish...provided the buyer has the right to inspect the item for themselves. No need for guarantees.

Where "as is" is applicable to online sales is after the buyer receives the item(s), inspects it/them, and accepts them, either by notifying the seller, or after a reasonable amount of time has passed and the buyer has not notified the seller of defect. If you buy a car "as is" on eBay, for example...and you can...and the car arrives, you inspect it (or have it inspected), and you accept it, and two months later, you throw a rod and lose the engine, then you have no recourse. That's the way it goes. If, however, you receive the car, and there is a material defect which the seller did not note...you can reject it, regardless of it being sold "as is."

Is this a legal opinion?  Because I'm not sure I entirely agree. "As is" is a disclaimer of implied warranties, but not explicit warranties.  So if someone says, for example, a comic is signed by Stan Lee and it turns out it is not, then "as is" is of no help to the seller. 

But, "as is" is helpful to the seller when we are discussing defects which are not the subject of express warranties.  So if a seller says here's a comic, here are some pics I took, I'm selling it "as is," then the doctrine of "buyer beware" would likely apply.  

 

[the blob]

3 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Is this a legal opinion?  Because I'm not sure I entirely agree. "As is" is a disclaimer of implied warranties, but not explicit warranties.  So if someone says, for example, a comic is signed by Stan Lee and it turns out it is not, then "as is" is of no help to the seller. 

But, "as is" is helpful to the seller when we are discussing defects which are not the subject of express warranties.  So if a seller says here's a comic, here are some pics I took, I'm selling it "as is," then the doctrine of "buyer beware" would likely apply.  

 

"Because warranties typically only become an issue when a buyer is dissatisfied, a prudent seller tries to limit the scope of the warranties he makes before a problem arises. The U.C.C. specifically allows sellers to disclaim both express and implied warranties on goods they sell, within certain limits. Interestingly, the U.C.C. does not provide many specific rules regarding how warranties are disclaimed. In keeping with the idea that the purpose of the U.C.C. is to make business transactions easier, the U.C.C. provides that attempts to disclaim warranties should be construed reasonably and enforced unless doing so is unreasonable under the circumstances. This broad rule is followed by some guidelines.

Generally, a seller who wants to disclaim U.C.C. warranties must do so specifically. A general statement that there are "no warranties, express or implied" is usually ineffective. Just how express a disclaimer needs to be depends on the kind of warranty being disclaimed. An express warranty must be expressly disclaimed. A disclaimer that disclaims the implied warranty of merchantability must specifically mention "merchantability" in the disclaimer. Finally, a seller may disclaim all implied warranties by stating that the good is being sold "as is," "with all faults," or by stating some other phrase that makes it plain to the buyer there are no implied warranties."

A well written "as is" disclaimer ought to be able to deal with whether there are any warranties, implied or explicit, re: restoration. Do many sellers do this? No.