Grading Skill Of A Comic Dealer 3 3

[justafan]

6 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

Some dealers can't grade.  Some dealers over grade on purpose, their reward is a higher sticker price.  And even skilled, honest dealers make mistakes.

Your best defense is to learn everything you can about grading.  Study graded books and their assigned grade, submit books for grading, study books selling  at sites like Heritage that provide high quality scans.  And when you buy a book take it out of the bag, look it over carefully under good light, count pages, look for restoration.  Don't depend on a dealer who has skin in the game to assess a book for you.

It's a minefield out there with a lot of over graded, restored, incomplete, overpriced books.

Totally agree.  If you're going to spend decent money on comics -especially if you plan on getting it graded, you have to learn to do your own grading assessment.  Always use their grade as the ceiling and assess the book yourself in hand.    Buy a copy of the overstreet grading guide, review CGC and the other guys graded books on heritage and practice hard at the mid-grades (VG/FN to VF).  At first you'll be shocked at what counts towards the grade and how far it gets knocked down.  Then you'll go through your extremely anal tight phase where you grade everything too harshly.  Eventually you'll settle into a good grading mindset and will be able to properly assess any raw book you think about buying.

I've seen beautiful NM looking books knocked down for things that are often overlooked such as internally rusty staples, hidden stains, torn interior pages, loose or detatched wraps, interior writing, and other stuff.  Restoration and trimming can be difficult, if not, impossible to the untrained/uninterested eye.

Never be shy about asking to examine the book thoroughly page by page.  If the dealer prefers, ask him to handle it and open for you page by page.  Ask lots of questions why they consider it the grade they do and if you find a defect you know shouldn't be allowed in that grade, mention it politely and suggest a counter grade.  Often you have a better chance at negotiating if you can justify the grade but don't get into an argument.  It is still the dealer's book and up to him whether or not he wants to/can sell it for a lower price.  It is then up to you to decide if you want to still buy it in the condition you give it for their price.  It you can't come to an agreement, just move on and keep looking.

[CKinTO]

This may be just me, but my buying of raw keys is typically in the high-grade only end, where I'm looking for 9.6 / 9.8 candidates. As such, in this land, where a tiny spine tick or finger press can be the difference between the two grades (and thus the resulting value), I 1) only buy from dealers I trust / know, and 2) generally don't take the book out of the bag.

I'll ask lots of questions (confirming no hidden defects, back cover's okay, etc.) and will spend a lot of time looking at the front cover. But in show conditions, having to open a book without a proper table, gloves, etc., I'm more anal about doing damage when looking through it. Knock wood so far I haven't been burned, but I'm sure all it will take is one time for me to change my tune (!)

[Bomber-Bob]

If you find a dealer that grades accurately and offers fair prices, spend your money there AND keep it to yourself ! I like to go to a convention on setup day and watch where the other dealers are hanging out.  Find a dealer's dealer and see if he will let you hunt with the big dogs. 

I think the smart play for dealers at a convention is to simply sticker a price, not a grade.  Takes any arguments about the grade out of the equation. Puts the onus on the Buyer, which is where it should be.

[october]

11 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

 

Your best defense is to learn everything you can about grading.  Study graded books and their assigned grade, submit books for grading, study books selling  at sites like Heritage that provide high quality scans.  And when you buy a book take it out of the bag, look it over carefully under good light, count pages, look for restoration.  Don't depend on a dealer who has skin in the game to assess a book for you.

This. Any collector that is spending a decent amount of money or is grade conscious needs to either A) learn to grade and detect basic restoration for themselves, or B) only buy CGC graded comics. Anything else is a recipe for disappointment. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by october

[BlowUpTheMoon]

21 hours ago, JohnFranklin said:

Frankly to this day I am not sure what the real basis for the grade was and the grader's notes weren't conclusive. 

If you post good scans of the book, I'm sure the Board will be able to tell you why it graded a 7.5 and an 8.0

[jharvey]

18 hours ago, lizards2 said:

At least they're not putting the micro-chamber next to the covers on DCs anymore, and blowing the staples out.

I don't understand what you are saying here. How exactly does a piece of micro-chamber paper harm the staples?

[Pirate]

over 50 years old suck, under 50 half suck.

[blue808]

There are maybe 2 or 3 board members (one who is a dealer)  that I would buy a book with just a front cover scan or by their grade and/or description. But in the end you have to learn how to grade yourself and that takes time and experience (and unfortunately getting burned a few times).

[lizards2]

56 minutes ago, jharvey said:

19 hours ago, lizards2 said:

At least they're not putting the micro-chamber next to the covers on DCs anymore, and blowing the staples out.

I don't understand what you are saying here. How exactly does a piece of micro-chamber paper harm the staples?

It doesn't harm the staples, but can sometimes separate/detach a staple from the cover of the book.

I'm pretty sure it was discussed here, but I still suck at the search function. 

60's DCs have very fragile staple placements, which is why you see so many DCs with blown staples.  Many issues are notorious for this (Batman 222). 

Jamming the micro-chamber directly between the covers and the interior pages is sometimes just enough to make the staples pop, especially if you then squeeze and flatten the book during encapsulation in the inner well. 

You can even do it with raw books in regular or Mylar sleeves.  I learned that lesson the hard way.

[kav]

I stopped putting a wooden board between covers to protect em cause pop city.

[ADAMANTIUM]

35 minutes ago, kav said:

I stopped putting a wooden board between covers to protect em cause pop city.

My LCS sometimes put the backing board in the middle. I always wondered why?

[kav]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

My LCS sometimes put the backing board in the middle. I always wondered why?

maybe so buyer can see front and back cvr.

[thirdgreenham]

On 8/13/2017 at 6:04 PM, JohnFranklin said:

 I've been meaning to pose this question for some time, the question follows after the description of what happened....A number of years ago I bought a raw comic from a well known dealer and I want to point out I have bought from this dealer since, so there is no beef here.  At the time, I had very little experience with grading so I asked the dealer about the comic's grade, they indicated a 9.4 and potentially a 9.6 on a good day.  I got the book graded and it came back an 8.0.  In general I wondered at that time if the dealer should have been closer on the grade, so my question is, should a dealer generally have reasonable grading skills?  Now perhaps this answers my own question, maybe the dealer's weak assessment was simply an anomaly.  Frankly to this day I am not sure what the real basis for the grade was and the grader's notes weren't conclusive.  The kicker is, I cracked the book out and re-submitted it and it came back a 7.5.........

 

Going from a 9.4 grade by the dealer to an 8.0 grade by CGC is truly unacceptable.  This is a well-known dealer?  

I mean, as @thehumantorch said, anyone can make a mistake or miss something, but overgrading by 4 grades (or 5 grades on a good day) is crazy.

If they don't have their grade estimate on the sticker, ask them what they feel the grade is.  Ask to see the book and you assess it for yourself.  Get a clue about grading before spending decent money with someone.  

[lizards2]

19 minutes ago, thirdgreenham said:

On 8/13/2017 at 3:04 PM, JohnFranklin said:

 I've been meaning to pose this question for some time, the question follows after the description of what happened....A number of years ago I bought a raw comic from a well known dealer and I want to point out I have bought from this dealer since, so there is no beef here.  At the time, I had very little experience with grading so I asked the dealer about the comic's grade, they indicated a 9.4 and potentially a 9.6 on a good day.  I got the book graded and it came back an 8.0.  In general I wondered at that time if the dealer should have been closer on the grade, so my question is, should a dealer generally have reasonable grading skills?  Now perhaps this answers my own question, maybe the dealer's weak assessment was simply an anomaly.  Frankly to this day I am not sure what the real basis for the grade was and the grader's notes weren't conclusive.  The kicker is, I cracked the book out and re-submitted it and it came back a 7.5.........

 

Going from a 9.4 grade by the dealer to an 8.0 grade by CGC is truly unacceptable.  This is a well-known dealer?  

I mean, as @thehumantorch said, anyone can make a mistake or miss something, but overgrading by 4 grades (or 5 grades on a good day) is crazy.

If they don't have their grade estimate on the sticker, ask them what they feel the grade is.  Ask to see the book and you assess it for yourself.  Get a clue about grading before spending decent money with someone.  

I have several names in my head, but of course, not one of them is you.

[kav]

6 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

I have several names in my head, but of course, not one of them is you.

[lizards2]

11 hours ago, kav said:

11 hours ago, lizards2 said:

I have several names in my head, but of course, not one of them is you.

I don't consider you to be a BSD.  In fact, I don't recall you selling (or buying) anything.

[blazingbob]

22 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

If you find a dealer that grades accurately and offers fair prices, spend your money there AND keep it to yourself ! I like to go to a convention on setup day and watch where the other dealers are hanging out.  Find a dealer's dealer and see if he will let you hunt with the big dogs. 

I think the smart play for dealers at a convention is to simply sticker a price, not a grade.  Takes any arguments about the grade out of the equation. Puts the onus on the Buyer, which is where it should be.

Bob,  as a dealer I would much rather gauge a dealer's grading ability with them putting a grade on the sticker versus a price.  And no it does not take the argument of grade out of the equation because it requires you to look up the price and guess what he graded it.  VG is $10,  you have $50,  did you grade it a VF?  

The onus of grading should never rest solely on the buyer.  If you are behind a table with books for sale,  signs,  business cards, instagram account,  website you are a dealer and should stand behind your grading ability.  There is no "Weekend Warrior Dealer" free pass on this.  You should be open to being asked who taught you how to grade.    

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by blazingbob

[Artboy99]

On ‎2017‎/‎08‎/‎14 at 2:23 AM, thehumantorch said:

Some dealers can't grade.  Some dealers over grade on purpose, their reward is a higher sticker price.  And even skilled, honest dealers make mistakes.

Your best defense is to learn everything you can about grading.  Study graded books and their assigned grade, submit books for grading, study books selling  at sites like Heritage that provide high quality scans.  And when you buy a book take it out of the bag, look it over carefully under good light, count pages, look for restoration.  Don't depend on a dealer who has skin in the game to assess a book for you.

It's a minefield out there with a lot of over graded, restored, incomplete, overpriced books.

It is indeed.

Take the raw Hulk 181 me and Dave looked at. We ask the dealer if the book has the Marvel value Stamp and he said yes. Flip to the page and yes it has a MVS, but the wrong one. What someone had done is swap out the wrap from a Hulk 179 in place of the wrap from the Hulk 181.

Knowledge helped in this. As I collect Marvel value Stamps I instantly knew it was the wrong stamp in the book.

Later the same dealer tried to trade the tainted Hulk 181 to a friend of mine for his WWBN 32. The friend came to me and asked my opinion of the potential trade, and I asked who the dealer was. He told me, and then

 

To the OP, mind sharing a scan of the book? That way those of us who are chiming in can see if the outside looks 9.4 9.6, and then the issue is an interior problem which many would miss.

[Artboy99]

13 hours ago, thirdgreenham said:

 

Going from a 9.4 grade by the dealer to an 8.0 grade by CGC is truly unacceptable.  This is a well-known dealer?  

I mean, as @thehumantorch said, anyone can make a mistake or miss something, but overgrading by 4 grades (or 5 grades on a good day) is crazy.

If they don't have their grade estimate on the sticker, ask them what they feel the grade is.  Ask to see the book and you assess it for yourself.  Get a clue about grading before spending decent money with someone.  

It is possible the book actually visually and structurally looks like a 9.4 even 9.6 BUT has something about it that would reduce the grade. Example: a small water stain that you can't really see.

More likely the book has several spine stresses and visually appears as an 8.0 copy and the dealer is over grading.

[1Cool]

7 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

It is possible the book actually visually and structurally looks like a 9.4 even 9.6 BUT has something about it that would reduce the grade. Example: a small water stain that you can't really see.

More likely the book has several spine stresses and visually appears as an 8.0 copy and the dealer is over grading.

It just happened in the grading contest.  99% of people thought a book was 9.0 - 9.4 and it came back a 7.5.  Maybe in hand the very, very light creases would have stood out but we were looking at blown up scans and almost everyone severely over graded the book.