Are Newton Rings 'normal and acceptable'? 13 13

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/31/2018 at 3:13 PM, CGC Comics said:

Thank you for your feedback.

 

 

The “rainbow effect” or “Newton rings” are a normal occurrence when two different plastics (which have different refractive indexes) are placed together. It’s what you sometimes see on a smartphone screen protector or on the edges of an LCD screen. 

 

 

 

The rainbow effect has been seen in CGC holders since our first-generation holder was introduced nearly 20 years ago. This is a result of the inner sleeve (which holds the book) contacting the hard-plastic outer shell; the two different plastics have different refractive indexes and that sometimes creates a rainbow effect when they come into contact. A minor rainbow effect has always been within our tolerance. If anyone feels that they have a book that exhibits an extreme rainbow effect, however, we encourage you to contact our Customer Service at submissions@cgccomics.com.

 

 

 

Behind the scenes, we are constantly working to improve the CGC holder. Most recently, we have made a slight modification to the inner dimensions of our standard holder to accommodate the increasing variety of comic book sizes and paper stocks. In our testing, this minor modification was also shown to reduce the presence of the rainbow effect for many books. We did not want to share our findings until our thorough testing was complete, and now that it is, we are pleased to report that these modified holders have been fully integrated into our encapsulation process with very positive results.

 

 

 

CGC continues to research enhancements to its holders, including ones that may further reduce the rainbow effect, and we will keep you updated with any noteworthy developments.

 

 

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

Example of extreme rainbow effect:

 

 

Here it is Bolden for people who missed it. I empathize for us who have books with excessive Newton rings. It's happened to me, so I get it. Without a statement from CGC with promising results for so long, I can empathize with this who now doubt when these new promises come.

However we asked for a fix, we have a statement of a fix, the only way to get results is HOLD THEM TO THEIR WORD! And send them in for reholder for free and "LET" them prove it....

Spoiler

 

Hopefully this fix is real so we can see your AF #15 graded @Get Marwood & I  

 

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by ADAMANTIUM
Tag Marwood he'll cheer me up :wishluck:

[ADAMANTIUM]

I'm standing on cgc' s good name, but I may end up going down with the ship if this fix doesn't prove permanent. 

C'mon CGC I'm staking what little reputation I have that you've done what you said 

[I like pie]

The "fix" didn't sound like it eliminates it. Just reduces it

[ADAMANTIUM]

3 minutes ago, I like pie said:

The "fix" didn't sound like it eliminates it. Just reduces it

I'm hopeful and looking through rose colored glasses I know

but there were always minimal rings, and I'd be satisfied with that.  

 

and I could say but... but.... but... until the cows come home and it will get me no where.

the point is that I want to hold cgc to there WORD! We've waited for a response for sooooo long and I assume this time cgc has spent doing something. This would be the time to still direct concerns toward cgc. 

I know it's Friday and I'm a stick in the mud, but Marwood didn't want the thread to get locked after all the hard work  

 

[VintageComics]

8 hours ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

The Holders.... in their Construct...are sealed, and the surfaces in direct contact with each other. I should mention these holders were the 3rd Design, as I recall.

So, the newtons? Why not in this product?

Because the 'Newton ring' effect is caused by the two materials specifically used by CGC to form their inner and outer cases when they touch each other.

CGC seems to be mitigating the effect by adjusting the distance between the two materials / cases (and therefore the amount of pressure between them) but not completely eliminating it.

It seems that the only way to go back to a completely (or mostly) ring free case seems would be to change one (or both) of the materials as it's the interaction between the two materials currently in use that causes the effect.

Edited September 8, 2018 by VintageComics

[ADAMANTIUM]

7 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Because the 'Newton ring' effect is caused by the two materials specifically used by CGC to form their inner and outer cases when they touch each other.

CGC seems to be mitigating the effect by adjusting the distance between the two materials / cases (and therefore the amount of pressure between them) but not completely eliminating it.

It seems that the only way to go back to a completely (or mostly) ring free case seems would be to change one (or both) of the materials as it's the interaction between the two materials currently in use that causes the effect.

But aren't the current products that CGC uses considered archival? Is it even possible for cgc to use different material?

I wouldn't imagine that there aren't a lot of options, but then again, I'm pretty ignorant on the subject...

admittedly

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by ADAMANTIUM

[skypinkblu]

6 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Because the 'Newton ring' effect is caused by the two materials specifically used by CGC to form their inner and outer cases when they touch each other.

CGC seems to be mitigating the effect by adjusting the distance between the two materials / cases (and therefore the amount of pressure between them) but not completely eliminating it.

It seems that the only way to go back to a completely (or mostly) ring free case seems would be to change one (or both) of the materials as it's the interaction between the two materials currently in use that causes the effect.

I remember reading that one of the materials changed, do you know anything about that, Roy?

[skypinkblu]

1 hour ago, Ride the Tiger said:

OK so I took a few days off from this thread to kind of let the aggravation settle. I'm still confused as to whether there is a fix in place. And by fix I mean something that CGC is doing to correct the issue, not what they SHOULD do to fix it. Or what they can do to fix it. In other words has anyone actually gotten a reholdered comic yet that has taken the problem away? I'm also curious how everyone is getting a picture of their rings. They are as plain as day to me but to photograph them is an entirely different story. I have tried holding the slab at different angles and using different cameras but its nothing like the pics people are posting. Anyone? Anyone?

Do you have a scanner? That's what I find works...but you still don't see all the distortions.

[VintageComics]

20 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

I remember reading that one of the materials changed, do you know anything about that, Roy?

Yes, they replaced the inner liner material that they had used for 15 years. The inner liner material used to be Barex, but they moved away from it because it was becoming obsolete.

For a while with the pressurized well, introduced in the spring of 2016, they used Mylar sheets with no inner well. Just pressure to hold the book between two sheets of Mylar.

They replaced the two sheets of Mylar with an inner well again but I can't remember what it was made of (whether it was still Mylar or something else).

The Newton Ring effect was present on both holders with the latest design - the one using Mylar sheets in the spring of 2016 and the replacement about 3 months later (around June 2016) that we currently still use.

That's what leads me to believe that the new inner holder might still be Mylar.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by VintageComics

[ADAMANTIUM]

Well that's a lot of facts that jogs my memory, thank you @VintageComics

Sorry that I couldn't be of more help...everyone  

Edited September 8, 2018 by ADAMANTIUM
Everyone

[The Milkman]

3 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

In other words has anyone actually gotten a reholdered comic yet that has taken the problem away?

Yes.  When I sent books back 8 months ago, I asked for them to be reholdered in the thicker cases.  (They had been doing this for free for people that complained about a year ago, but by the time I went to do it it was no longer free - I had to pay for the reholder.)  This solved the problem.  The thicker cases allowed for just a millimeter of extra space between the mylar and the outer shell, and it eliminated the newton rings completely.  That is the fix - use thicker slabs, or slabs that have a bit of space in them.

So I was basically paying to have my books graded, waiting the 3+ months to get them back, and then immediatley sending them back down for a reholder on my dime. Did this for about 10 books.

Edited September 8, 2018 by The Milkman

[Get Marwood & I]

6 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Hopefully this fix is real so we can see your AF #15 graded @Get Marwood & I  

 

 

 

Cheers Mark. I love all things comics, and am actually quite excited about getting my first books graded, even though it is just to facilitate selling them. All my slabs have been second hand to date. I won't chance it until I see that definitive statement though. 'Newton Rings have been consigned to history. Submit safe in the knowledge your slab will come back clean'. That's what I'm looking for. Sure they'll get there at some point 

6 hours ago, I like pie said:

The "fix" didn't sound like it eliminates it. Just reduces it

Yes, that's how I interpreted it too.

I don't think I've anything else to add to this debate now. There seems to be a multitude of explanations for the NR effect - I know which one I believe, based on my own experience coupled with logic. Lets hope we get something concrete from CGC soon on it's eventual elimination, and on the interim remedial process. 

I will post some fireworks if we hit 200 voters though 

[skypinkblu]

2 hours ago, The Milkman said:

Yes.  When I sent books back 8 months ago, I asked for them to be reholdered in the thicker cases.  (They had been doing this for free for people that complained about a year ago, but by the time I went to do it it was no longer free - I had to pay for the reholder.)  This solved the problem.  The thicker cases allowed for just a millimeter of extra space between the mylar and the outer shell, and it eliminated the newton rings completely.  That is the fix - use thicker slabs, or slabs that have a bit of space in them.

So I was basically paying to have my books graded, waiting the 3+ months to get them back, and then immediatley sending them back down for a reholder on my dime. Did this for about 10 books.

 

2 hours ago, The Milkman said:

  5 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

In other words has anyone actually gotten a reholdered comic yet that has taken the problem away?

That's so odd, I didn't say that, that quote was from Ride the Tiger...but it's good to know. 

Strangely, I saw rings first in the SA cases, then in the bigger cases next submission, the SA ones were fine for the most part, the GA ones had splotches.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

7 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Because the 'Newton ring' effect is caused by the two materials specifically used by CGC to form their inner and outer cases when they touch each other.

CGC seems to be mitigating the effect by adjusting the distance between the two materials / cases (and therefore the amount of pressure between them) but not completely eliminating it.

It seems that the only way to go back to a completely (or mostly) ring free case seems would be to change one (or both) of the materials as it's the interaction between the two materials currently in use that causes the effect.

Unfortunately, Mr. Vintage, I think you may have misinterpreted my Post, and it will help if you go back and read again. Better would be for you to actually look and hold and feel one of the holders I am referring to. Of course it is the material. Of course it is specific. Whether or not the materials touch each other is of no consequence. It is the product itself.

 

7 hours ago, VintageComics said:

change one (or both) of the materials as it's the interaction between the two materials currently in use that causes the effect.

While your explanation has been stated in many different ways by many members, it is an explanation that is left wanting. But it does not really matter, 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

7 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

I remember reading that one of the materials changed, do you know anything about that, Roy?

I discussed that in an earlier post.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

7 hours ago, VintageComics said:

was becoming obsolete.

No.

 

7 hours ago, VintageComics said:

what it was made of (

Extruded 240 

 

7 hours ago, VintageComics said:

The Newton Ring effect was present on both holders with the latest design - the one using Mylar sheets in the spring of 2016 and the replacement about 3 months later (around June 2016) that we currently still use.

Again, it is not present with the PMG Holders, which started bring used around March 2016. It is a high quality inert material. This was the 3rd re-design (The first design was a bit flimsy and easily scratched and that was replaced by the bluish/greenish heat extruded sheet material). Prior to that, the Holders did not have the....what you call "effect".....Rings, and the reason the Holders were changed was as I stated in my earlier post, a slight bluish/greenish tint. I would ask that you read all my posts carefully. I don't know that you understand they are sister organizations in the same business entity. If you do, I would think you would have some further questions.

[namisgr]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I would ask that you read all my posts carefully. 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

9 hours ago, VintageComics said:

9 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

I remember reading that one of the materials changed, do you know anything about that, Roy?

Yes, they replaced the inner liner material that they had used for 15 years. The inner liner material used to be Barex, but they moved away from it because it was becoming obsolete.

For a while with the pressurized well, introduced in the spring of 2016, they used Mylar sheets with no inner well. Just pressure to hold the book between two sheets of Mylar.

They replaced the two sheets of Mylar with an inner well again but I can't remember what it was made of (whether it was still Mylar or something else).

The Newton Ring effect was present on both holders with the latest design - the one using Mylar sheets in the spring of 2016 and the replacement about 3 months later (around June 2016) that we currently still use.

That's what leads me to believe that the new inner holder might still be Mylar.

Basically correct.  It was Barex-brand polyacrylonitrile (PAN), and this material was becoming obsolete to other materials.  Eventually, one of the last companies manufacturing it (Ineos Group) stopped and closed its plant in Lima, Oh because they could no longer turn a profit with such low demand.  When this happened, CGC lost its supplier.

[Ride the Tiger]

4 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

 

That's so odd, I didn't say that, that quote was from Ride the Tiger...but it's good to know. 

Strangely, I saw rings first in the SA cases, then in the bigger cases next submission, the SA ones were fine for the most part, the GA ones had splotches.

Yep that was me that made that comment. I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion. I asked earlier if there was a fix and someone replied "Ya go back to old slabs". Wasn't sure if this is what CGC was doing or what the person who typed it thought CGC should be doing. More or less would like to eliminate hearsay and find out if someone got a book fixed yet. To my knowledge no one has gotten a reholdered book yet as we would see the before and after pics.

[VintageComics]

4 hours ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I don't know that you understand they are sister organizations in the same business entity. If you do, I would think you would have some further questions.

I do understand.