Ethics of Pressing
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61 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Jeffro. said:

I guess it's a good thing you didn't succeed in destroying CGC 

How do you know he hasn't? He may well have taken over and then mercifully let the CGC staff and management remain after all signing non-disclosure agreements about the silent coup. Maybe most of the CGC staff doesn't even know about it as of yet? Dylan might not only be mighty by equally magnanimous!

Edited by James J Johnson
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10 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

How do you know he hasn't? He may well have taken over and then mercifully let the CGC staff and management remain after all signing non-disclosure agreements about the silent coup. Maybe most of the CGC staff doesn't even know about it as of yet? Dylan might not only be mighty by equally magnanimous!

I'll believe that when I see them grading while on the toilet.

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On 11/2/2020 at 1:05 PM, Randall Dowling said:

I think to use the car analogy, if a car was in an accident, and you could hammer out the dents through some process and make it look like it had never been in an accident without repainting, just maybe some buffing and washing after the dents were fixed, and you then sold it as never having been in an accident, would that be an honest thing to do.

The answer, obviously, is no.  On a molecular level, the metal has fatigue and is weaker where it was once bent.  Comics aren’t any different. 

I would personally pay more for a raw book that had never been messed with and appeared to be a lower grade than one that’s been pressed and certified by CGC as a higher grade.

We run into however what really constitutes "messed with."

When I was collecting in the '70s, I would take some of my comics exhibiting spine roll and insert them into stacks of my dad's heavy "Design News" magazines, in a basement with a dehumidifier but not the driest area by far.  I was doing a form of pressing, but like people sometimes mention stacking under encyclopedia volumes, was it a "natural" storage condition?  Like any stack of comics subject to pressure by weight and relative humidity that's not low?  My type of pressing I've described I consider pretty natural, and so when it comes to the pressing issue, generally I don't have a problem when modern means are used to achieve the same end result.  Not "messing" with a comic can be a tricky standard to establish.

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On 11/2/2020 at 1:05 PM, Randall Dowling said:

I think to use the car analogy, if a car was in an accident, and you could hammer out the dents through some process and make it look like it had never been in an accident without repainting, just maybe some buffing and washing after the dents were fixed, and you then sold it as never having been in an accident, would that be an honest thing to do.

The answer, obviously, is no.  On a molecular level, the metal has fatigue and is weaker where it was once bent.  Comics aren’t any different. 

I would personally pay more for a raw book that had never been messed with and appeared to be a lower grade than one that’s been pressed and certified by CGC as a higher grade.

and that's exactly my point. you are altering the comic book, we just all accept it as a community to be ethical

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On 10/29/2020 at 8:38 PM, Tony S said:

it's an endless debate where no one changes their mind. And it goes back before CCS. It goes back (at least)  to Classics Inc, which was ultimately purchased by CGC and renamed CCS. 
 

I think of it like this:   One finds a classic car in a barn. All original, numbers match. You can pick your favorite car. I'll go with a 1970 Olds 442. 

if you repaint the car and have the interior replaced - then the car is still wonderful and desirable, but not 100 % original. Stuff has been added. 

If you have the car detailed - washed, buffed,  waxed, every little nook and crevasse cleaned . It is still original and unrestored.  And you don't have to "disclose" it. People assume unless your a total dummy that you had the car carefully cleaned before putting it in a show or your garage. 

That's pressing/cleaning of comic books.  Nothing added.  100% original 

I have seen this analogy since I joined these boards in 2002 and it is as incorrect now is it was then. Comparing paper/ink to metal/paint has absolutely no basis in reality. The way a car reacts to washing and the way a comic book reacts to cleaning/pressing is the same? Absolutely not. A car does not have fibers that can get raised when moistened.  A car does not have sizing that can be dissolved or rubbed away. The finish of a car does not react remotely the way the finish/surface and structure of a comic book reacts. Are you advocating we all wax our comics to get that "Mint Gloss"?

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3 hours ago, PovertyRow said:

I have seen this analogy since I joined these boards in 2002 and it is as incorrect now is it was then. Comparing paper/ink to metal/paint has absolutely no basis in reality. The way a car reacts to washing and the way a comic book reacts to cleaning/pressing is the same? Absolutely not. A car does not have fibers that can get raised when moistened.  A car does not have sizing that can be dissolved or rubbed away. The finish of a car does not react remotely the way the finish/surface and structure of a comic book reacts. Are you advocating we all wax our comics to get that "Mint Gloss"?

Nobody is comparing the structural integrity of paper to metal. The analogy is comparing restorative work vs non-restorative work to both finished products. It's apt.

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I equate pressing/cleaning of a comic to that of a car. Suppose someone finds a vintage automobile in a barn. Obviously, it will be covered in dust, dirt, coon poop, and the like. By taking some time to clean it from inside to out, giving it a nice wash, you aren't changing the fact that you have an original car. You are just making it look much better. The same logic for me is applied to comics. Pressing to remove minor imperfections and cleaning to remove some dust/dirt from contact over the years is NOT unethical.

Now, once you start adding pieces of paper and doing actual structural repairs, well that is when you are changing the book. Much like with a car, if you start re-painting and replacing parts, it is not longer a completely original car. Granted, it matters less in that collecting world than here at the current time. 

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I mean, imagine if for cars there was a machine that smoothed out dents without you having to repaint or anything....you can't tell me car collectors would be upset and saying "oh no you removed all those dents and kept everything else original, boooo give me back the dents". Same thing in my eyes for pressing. As long as you aren't adding stuff or removing stuff (trimming) to try and enhance a book's appeal, pressing/cleaning are fine by me. 

Once again, if you have showroom car that rolled off the lot back in 1960 and into a museum and you also have barn find car that is cleaned up with a good wash and looks exactly the same, does it really matter that one sat in a showroom all its life and the other had a bath but is now the same car?

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4 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Then why didn't you note the trimming on the books you sold on e-bay. What the hell Dylan?!

Because he claims trimming isn't restoration due to something being 'taken away,' not considering the fact that the straight edge and sharper corners have been restored.

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5 hours ago, MR SigS said:

Because he claims trimming isn't restoration due to something being 'taken away,' not considering the fact that the straight edge and sharper corners have been restored.

THAT gets to the crux of the matter. "...the straight edge and sharp corners have been restored." Quite right. The definition of restoration is NOT having something added, even though the TPGs try to pass that off. The real definition of restoration is "the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition." (bold italics mine to make a point).

 

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I don't think it's unethical at all, but it is annoying how it has become a selling technique. As in @@!!!WOW @@!!! NEVER PRESSED!!!

Especially annoying when someone lists a low grade book and says "would benefit from a press" as if pressing is going to make a book with color breaking creases and tears go from a 2.0 to a 5.0. 

Only thing worse is a seller claiming a book has "never been read". There aren't enough facepalms in the world :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

 

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10 hours ago, MR SigS said:
16 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Then why didn't you note the trimming on the books you sold on e-bay. What the hell Dylan?!

Because he claims trimming isn't restoration due to something being 'taken away,' not considering the fact that the straight edge and sharper corners have been restored.

Is he the guy that ruined his AF 15s then tried to blame CGC? If yes, I can see how he takes this stance on trimming as well. People like this will turn off a number of newbie collectors by taking advantage of them. There are way too many dealers and "pressing and restoration professionals" now doing amateur jobs and ruining books. That is bad for the hobby long term.

Edited by kimik
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10 minutes ago, kimik said:

Is he the guy that ruined his AF 15s then tried to blame CGC? If yes, I can see how he takes this stance on trimming as well. People like this will turn off a number of newbie collectors by taking advantage of them. There are way too many dealers and "pressing and restoration professionals" now doing amateur jobs and ruining books. That is bad for the hobby long term.

Yes, the same guy.

And don't forget his tour de force 

 

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